What do you like about Russia (history and present)?

Racism is not casual interaction, it is a social structure. Any casual racism was denied that structure by the specifically anti-racist attitudes of the Soviet government./.../If anything, Soviet society was explicitly anti-racist, as it struggled to help the less-developed peoples of the USSR, and the world, to rise to their level. Non-Russians had many more opportunities than Russians (an extensive system of Affirmative Action existed, as well as extensive investment in the economies and infrastructure of Union Republics).
I now challenge you to prove (e.g.to Formaldehyde) that racism does not exist in modern US either. You can use all the same arguments. After all, official policies of US are very explicitly anti-racist and much effort is being put into affirmative action. Also, black POTUS.
By the way, nearly all of the people who were deported because of ethnic reasons retained their full Soviet citizenship and all rights therein. The lost not an ounce of opportunity in Soviet society for being, say, Estonian, or Chechen, or Korean.
Read that again slowly for yourself :lol:

Then imagine being sent to stay within 20 miles of Kwethluk, Alaska and told that you never lost an ounce of opportunity. :lol:
 
I now challenge you to prove (e.g.to Formaldehyde) that racism does not exist in modern US either. You can use all the same arguments. After all, official policies of US are very explicitly anti-racist and much effort is being put into affirmative action. Also, black POTUS.


So you don't understand how structural racism works.

Were non-Russian nationalities routinely demonized in Soviet press and media? Were they left at the bottom of the social strata and not helped to have the same opportunities as any other nationality? Were there regularly attempts by large segments of society to exclude them or to institute laws which were unfairly biased against them? Were any ethnic minorities denied the ability to live or work in any location or job based on that ethnicity, while others were allowed? Were they constantly made to feel that they were, at any point, not fully equal to the other ethnicities in the Union? Were they even denied control over their own culture and affairs?

Of course not.

To give another example: after the serfs were freed in 1861, were they then equal? Or did they face serious impediments to their advancement, such as continuing legal bias against them and people in their position, prejudice and exclusion by other parts of society, and neglect to their needs and squalor by that society? The peasantry obviously isn't a race, but imagine that all the peasants were of one race: that's the situation of Blacks in the United States, except worse, because then after all the above, Jim Crow and the KKK came along.

The Soviets, on the other hand, actively worked to both reverse Great Russian chauvinism and the Russo-centric economy, giving all ethnicities power over their own affairs, and the less-developed ones, who suffered advancement at the expense of Great Russians, favorable placement in universities, particularly trade schools, and the non-Russian republics, like the Central Asian ones, extensive industrial investment and modernization. Hell, even the Baltic states, directly after incorporation, were fitted into the present Five-Year Plan, and immediately all became Soviet citizens.

Read that again slowly for yourself :lol:

Then imagine being sent to stay within 20 miles of Kwethluk, Alaska and told that you never lost an ounce of opportunity. :lol:

Show me an ethnicity for whom that was the fate. Not individuals, but groups as ethnic groups.

And by the way, nearly all ethnic deportees returned home again. You're from Estonia. Most of the Estonians deported in 1940 simply turned around when the train arrived wherever it was going, and went back home again. :lol: Some had to wait until later, like the Chechens, but their situation was unique, as they actively collaborated with the German invaders.
 
Because that's not what racism is.
Considering a whole ethnic group disloyal enough to merit mass deportation strikes me as quite racist, at least in a broad interpretation of the term.

By the way, nearly all of the people who were deported because of ethnic reasons retained their full Soviet citizenship and all rights therein. The lost not an ounce of opportunity in Soviet society for being, say, Estonian, or Chechen, or Korean.
Oh that's just awesome.

I have a solution for America's racial problems, then. Deport all blacks to Alaska or Wyoming or wherever, but keep them as American citizens. Nobody can accuse you of racism, after all they will not lose an ounce of opportunity!

What a priceless answer.
 
Some had to wait until later, like the Chechens, but their situation was unique, as they actively collaborated with the German invaders.

Collective guilt!!!

Can't trust those dirty *insert untrustworthy ethnic group here* !!

Non-racism at it's finest,
 
So you don't understand how structural racism works.
Dude, I was not disagreeing with you here. Just would love you to pick up the challenge. :D
Show me an ethnicity for whom that was the fate. Not individuals, but groups as ethnic groups.
I didn't realize your original point was not meant to concern individuals...
And by the way, nearly all ethnic deportees returned home again. You're from Estonia. Most of the Estonians deported in 1940 simply turned around when the train arrived wherever it was going, and went back home again. :lol:
That is just not correct... but let us not turn Estonia into new Poland here.
 
Dude, I was not disagreeing with you here. Just would love you to pick up the challenge. :D
Why don't you try discussing the issues instead of tilting at imaginary windmills.
 
Dude, the Civil War is over!
EDIT: This was in response to Form. Sorry, figuring out Tapatalk.

In response to Domen: thank you, we have already had one rather short but overall positive experience with being part of that place.
 
By the way, nearly all of the people who were deported because of ethnic reasons retained their full Soviet citizenship and all rights therein. The lost not an ounce of opportunity in Soviet society for being, say, Estonian, or Chechen, or Korean.

As much as it pains me to say, but I agree with luiz here. This sentence was a severe case of WTH.
 
Dude, I was not disagreeing with you here. Just would love you to pick up the challenge. :D

But I do disagree. I wouldn't ague that racism is gone in America, not by a long shot. And as I displayed, there is a huge difference between the two situations.

That is just not correct... but let us not turn Estonia into new Poland here.

But what would I know, I just learned it from a professor who's spent the past 40 years writing about the Baltic States during the inter-war through post-war periods.

All of them?

Perhaps there were some somewhere who did not. Should we try hundreds of thousands individually? If one country goes to war with another, should the enemy take care only to shoot those who actually support the war? Should they ask each soldier on the battlefield first?

The Chechen nation collaborated with the Nazis. This isn't a foreign concept, stop acting like it's some uniquely Soviet crime of communist horrors. There were Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazis, too, but there wasn't a general punishment of Ukrainians post-war, was there? Because the Ukrainian nation did not collaborate. Nation performs the crime, nation does the time.

Also, as a follow-up, what do you think made racism come back?

A variety of things, but most prominently the lack of state suppression of it. There's a valid critique to be made of the Soviet nationalities policy, but even with its problems it's the best ethnic policy ever to have existed. However, I think it contributed, or rather was deformed into a shape in which it could contribute, to the rise in racism after the Soviet collapse. I also think it's important to remember that their whole society had basically completely dissolved. The sky was effectively falling as was the ground under them. That sort of thing really screws with people, makes them forget their humanity. However, these racial issues are really most prominent among the younger generations, who grew up after perestroika allowed the beginnings of what became that racism to assert themselves.
 
The Chechen nation collaborated with the Nazis. This isn't a foreign concept, stop acting like it's some uniquely Soviet crime of communist horrors. There were Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazis, too, but there wasn't a general punishment of Ukrainians post-war, was there? Because the Ukrainian nation did not collaborate. Nation performs the crime, nation does the time.

Actually, I think that's an absolutely monstrous idea of justice.
 
Actually, I think that's an absolutely monstrous idea of justice.

Well a whole nation didn't collaborate with your enemy during an invasion of your country, now did it? Imagine if the Welsh joined with the Nazis during a hypothetical invasion of Great Britain. You don't think they would be dealt with extremely harshly? You wouldn't want them to be?
 
No, I'm not saying that I don't understand what might drive people to want to do that. But vengeance isn't justice. Justice by definition precludes anybody being punished for another's wrongdoings, especially when we don't even bother to find out whether or not he is innocent or guilty. Yes, people naturally want to requite blood with blood, but you can't dress that up as just behaviour.
 
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