What exactly is "Natural Selection"?

[classical_hero]

I haven't read Darwin's work, so obsviously I don't know that a "major sorce" for him was a creationist... nevertheless, as I have no reason to doubt your word, I'll indulge.

Maybe he wanted hard data. Maybe some other naturalists had collected info on morphology that Darwin could use, regardless of the fact they reached very different conclusions from them. Maybe only Darwin is known today because, despite the fact that he had help from info collected by others, he was the one who have achieved amazing innovative results with it.

That would not be a first. I remember, from when I read a biograph on Keppler, that he relied heavly in observations from another astronomer - who believed that the earth was the center of the solar system and that the orbit of the planets was round (Kepler was a hardcore supporter of Copernicus, and the man who figured out the ellipytical orbit of the planets, to those who don't know). And why? Because the fact that the other guy (sorry, forgot his name) has reached wrong conclusions from his observations didn't make him any less precise in his notes about planet positions in given days, and hence, didn't make the data he collected any less valuable.

Regards .

You would be talking about Gallelio. You see, Kepler gave due credit to those who helped him along his journey, whereas Darwin was reluctant to do that

 

[The Last Conformist]

You would be talking about Gallelio. You see, Kepler gave due credit to those who helped him along his journey, whereas Darwin was reluctant to do that

It would help your image if you didn't post nonsense after the correct name has been given.

 

[Scuffer]

Death is an issue that Evolutionists can never fully eplain why it actually occurs. Death is the issue that really separates the two groups.

Death is entirely divorced from evolution. It is birth that drives it.

 

[Sophie 378]

So why do creationists believe in Natural selection. We believe also in the Bible and the Bible talks about death. Death is the biggest case for natural selection, because of death that people are forced to survive. Death will come to us all and as a result. That is the ultimate punishment for our sins. Eventually Natural Selection will happen to all of us, because at one moment of time we will die. Death is an issue that Evolutionists can never fully eplain why it actually occurs. Death is the issue that really separates the two groups.

I understand every individual word but I have no idea what you mean.

 

[FredLC]

The astronomer FredLC is alluding to is Tycho Brahe, whose assistant Kepler was. Unlike the theorist Kepler, he was first and foremost an observational scientist, and his tabulations of stellar positions were the best produced in the pre-telescope era.

Tycho Brahe, Precisely. Thanks.

 

[Shaihulud]

Death thins the herd, removing the unfit, ensuring that it cannot contribute genetically.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

If you read the article written by William Blyth, you will see that Creationist believe that creatures adapt to their environment, otherwise they will die if they do not. That is common knowledge that if an animal does not adapt to it's surroundings. Every time I have seen an atricle that says that a certain group of people or animal "evolve" with this certain charateristic, I always come back and say that it has nothing to with evolutiion, but it is just that they are adapting to the environment. You can see evidence of that all around the world. We humans are the most adaptable creature on the planet. We are able to live in climates that are very hot. You live in on and So do I, and yet we have some people who live in cold climates, and yet both are still human, but both are living in different circumstances.

So why do creationists believe in Natural selection. We believe also in the Bible and the Bible talks about death. Death is the biggest case for natural selection, because of death that people are forced to survive. Death will come to us all and as a result. That is the ultimate punishment for our sins. Eventually Natural Selection will happen to all of us, because at one moment of time we will die. Death is an issue that Evolutionists can never fully eplain why it actually occurs. Death is the issue that really separates the two groups.

I suspect creationists accept natural selection as they can not talk it away but fail to see that its consequence together with genomics, gene expression and biology is indeed evolution. Only the lack of knowledge in the other, more complicated mentioned scientific fields can lead to the conclusion that natural selection does not end in evolution, people with knowledge on these topics accept evolution as it is the obvious consequence. Educate yourself on these topics on a scientific level and see if you still believe in your pseudoscientific creationism.

 

[Saga of Gemini]

I suspect creationists accept natural selection as they can not talk it away but fail to see that its consequence together with genomics, gene expression and biology is indeed evolution. Only the lack of knowledge in the other, more complicated mentioned scientific fields can lead to the conclusion that natural selection does not end in evolution, people with knowledge on these topics accept evolution as it is the obvious consequence. Educate yourself on these topics on a scientific level and see if you still believe in your pseudoscientific creationism.

oh so I see it all depend on what the "big guys" believe rigth?...please i think we are passed the point of justifyng something by appealing to authority

 

[Sophie 378]

And the bible isn't an authority that some appeal to? If you know a fair amount of biochemistry, it's quite hard to think that it's all a conspiracy by godless rotters plotting to overthrow the One True Faith (TM) by preaching a known-to-be-false doctrine.

 

[Saga of Gemini]

yup so if you want to go by appeals what comes first a god or a mere human?' XD

the problem is sophie that when confronted many evolutionists say: " you are ignorant dont you see the big guys believe this"??? and so the stigma goes on that anyone who dares think differently is ignorant..and who wants to be portrayed as ignorant? so pepole just nod and nod to evolution.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

oh so I see it all depend on what the "big guys" believe rigth?...please i think we are passed the point of justifyng something by appealing to authority

I talked about looking at FACTS and drawing your OWN conclusions istead of believing what a holy book and some religious authorities tell you to believe. I am not the one believing what an authority tells me, I made up my mind on proven facts available for everyone to learn and to try to disprove, it is you mistaking authoritan opinion with reality.

 

[Saga of Gemini]

Lets try the mental excersi..Ill ask our good friend Mr. Blonde to explain how if a shrimp came to be blind by natural selection it explains how it became a shrimp.

 

[Bill3000]

yup so if you want to go by appeals what comes first a god or a mere human?' XD

Except one cannot actually come in contact with god today, other than claiming to do so. As well, the bible was written by man.

Seriously, try to understand the concepts you are arguing against. Otherwise, you are just proving yourself to be ignorant and just proves scientists right about how ignorant fundamentalists are.

Lets try the mental excersi..Ill ask our good friend Mr. Blonde to explain how if a shrimp came to be blind by natural selection it explains how it became a shrimp.

Except this was already explained, unless you want him to do his own research and cite it. Do you want this thread turning into a scientific document or something?

 

[Abaddon]

Also, by not growing eyes- it did not need to waste the energy required for eyes unlike those that still grew eyes.

So they had more energy for other stuff- this therefore increases their reproductive rate making them more successful.


And for those really not understanding- its unlikely they suddenly had no eyes over one generation- it is more likely many many mutations with eyesight slowly reducing until little if none of the eyes remains.

 

[Saga of Gemini]

I talked about looking at FACTS and drawing your OWN conclusions istead of believing what a holy book and some religious authorities tell you to believe.

oh..but you didnt say "draw" your own coclusion you said something like: "read what the big guys think about it" so if my own conclusion its that it dosnt explain origins Im wrong rigth? so its basically wrong to follow the bible because you ahve to follow teh FACTS and what are the FACTS? what the big guys tell you are the FACTS and how you should look at them rigth?

I am not the one believing what an authority tells me, I made up my mind on proven facts available for everyone to learn and to try to disprove, it is you mistaking authoritan opinion with reality.

How funny how one can contradict itself in a mere 2 min break:

people with knowledge on these topics accept evolution as it is the obvious consequence

So instead of saying why its an obvius consecuence you just rely that the "big guys" think its an obvius concecuence therefore any other person that thinks differently is inherently wrong...dosnt that sounds you as DOGMA??

 

[Saga of Gemini]

Except one cannot actually come in contact with god today, other than claiming to do so. As well, the bible was written by man.

Seriously, try to understand the concepts you are arguing against. Otherwise, you are just proving yourself to be ignorant and just proves scientists right about how ignorant fundamentalists are

You try to understand that I put a little: "XD" meaning that I was joking

Except this was already explained, unless you want him to do his own research and cite it. Do you want this thread turning into a scientific document or something?

isnt that the point?

 

[FredLC]

If you read the article written by William Blyth, you will see that Creationist believe that creatures adapt to their environment, otherwise they will die if they do not. That is common knowledge that if an animal does not adapt to it's surroundings. Every time I have seen an atricle that says that a certain group of people or animal "evolve" with this certain charateristic, I always come back and say that it has nothing to with evolutiion, but it is just that they are adapting to the environment. You can see evidence of that all around the world. We humans are the most adaptable creature on the planet. We are able to live in climates that are very hot. You live in on and So do I, and yet we have some people who live in cold climates, and yet both are still human, but both are living in different circumstances.

Obviously, you are speaking here about the quarrel about macro-evolution and micro-evolution. You guys believe in the micro one - that species vary within limits that defines them as a certain species - but not in the macro one (that species can spawn different species).

IMHO, this is akin to intelligent design. After a certain point of contention was beaten beyond even unreasonable doubt, you concede it, but as minimally as possible. However, while you agree to part of the process, you fail to consider the consequences of it. What do you think will happen if several dis-associative micro-mutations happen? Can't you see that it will lead to incompatibility, a point when the two specimens can no longer be classified as one species?

Anyway, yes, not all micro-mutations instantly mean a macro-mutation. They have to accumulate over a long time and be composed of significant changes in order to mean so. No part of the human species is being subject to such kind of pressure in this age, so it's unlikely we will see variation any time soon.

So why do creationists believe in Natural selection. We believe also in the Bible and the Bible talks about death. Death is the biggest case for natural selection, because of death that people are forced to survive. Death will come to us all and as a result. That is the ultimate punishment for our sins. Eventually Natural Selection will happen to all of us, because at one moment of time we will die. Death is an issue that Evolutionists can never fully eplain why it actually occurs. Death is the issue that really separates the two groups.

Well, first, natural selection does not occur to individuals, and it is not pinpointed in the moment of our deaths. Natural selection is a concept that only makes sense in "species" scale.

After that was said, well, gotta say that biology explains death so very well. We (and all other creatures) die because our organisms areimperfect, and can't handle several environmental and/or internal pressures. Eventually it crumbles, due to time, decay or intervention. That's why it's so mean and random and unfair - as it is a contingency, not a punishment as you said, being a good person won't save you from it.

You would be talking about Gallelio. You see, Kepler gave due credit to those who helped him along his journey, whereas Darwin was reluctant to do that

Actually, no, not Galileo, but Tycho. Check out the other posts in the thread.

regards .

 

[Bill3000]

oh..but you didnt say "draw" your own coclusion you said something like: "read what the big guys think about it" so if my own conclusion its that it dosnt explain origins Im wrong rigth? so its basically wrong to follow the bible because you ahve to follow teh FACTS and what are the FACTS? what the big guys tell you are the FACTS and how you should look at them rigth?

It's called faith in the scientific method. While it is a type of faith, it is required to understand anything. Failure in doing so results in nihilism.

 

[Scuffer]

the problem is sophie that when confronted many evolutionists say: " you are ignorant dont you see the big guys believe this"??? and so the stigma goes on that anyone who dares think differently is ignorant..and who wants to be portrayed as ignorant? so pepole just nod and nod to evolution.

'Believe likes us, or burn in hell' Religion is far more guilty of this than science. You are ignorant for not agreeing, but ignorant for trying to argue something you don't understand, and don't try to.
You know Judge Judy? and sometime she has to explain something to a defendant who is clearly ignorant of what is going on but is so convinced of the value and import of what they are saying? That's how creationsist argue against science. Badly, and without comprehension.

 

[Saga of Gemini]

'Believe likes us, or burn in hell' Religion is far more guilty of this than science.

cant you defend your point without pointing any fingers and saying: "well we are not the worst people there you have some one worst-------->"

That's how creationsist argue against science. Badly, and without comprehension.

yes because god forbids that there migth be something against evolution, its unthinkable evolution its the only REAL AND ABSOLUTE truth so anyone who thinks differently is an ignorant rigth? if theres evidence that do not fit with the thoery its not the theory thats wrong its the evidence rigth?

SDame thing all over again and again just a appeal to authority.