What If God Was Real And Manifested Proving It?

[Farm Boy]

There might be a compass, but orienteering is not just something one does well without practice. Particularly not through storms.

 

[H4run]

Y'know, this is reminding me of things I've seen believers say in the comment sections of my news site. They think that if there weren't laws against it, atheists would run out, raping and killing everyone we came across, because we have no morals.

Perhaps that's what they think, but that's not what I meant, this is about either morality is socially construct or built intrinsically, if we agreed there's an intrinsic morality then there's an Actor that define it. I'm well aware the atheist as well has sets of values and virtues by their definition, I mean, it's well known that American and its allies intervention also mainly due to enforce those values.

God isn't necessary for morality tho.

I don't think so. I think a baby watching the scene would also be scared & horrified. One shouldn't need God commanding one not to rape. Also noteworthy that India is known for both high violence & high religiosity (the two are generally correlated, the less religious a nation generally the less crime)

Well, there are also a research that children doesn't lean toward an object that push away another object that want to come to certain direction, the fact that these values instilled within us. So these values of goodness is indeed installed within us.

That's a rather reactionary comment, and a large question mark hovers over that statistic or claim. However, we are discussing the existence of God here. If I were to address that discussion, it would entail covering all matters related to crime statistics, poverty, and terrorism. This approach seems to overwhelm me with subjects that could easily derail the conversation. I could defend my standpoint by starting to question the sample countries used in these statistics. Are these countries that have been systematically or militarily destabilized due to global political games? How do they define crime? There are also anecdotes and testimonies stating that people feel safer and more secure in highly religious places. These people can leave their cars with the keys in them without fear. I realize that this is anecdotal evidence, but I once left my laptop bag unattended for hours, and both my laptop and my documents (including my passport) were still there when I returned. Of course, these types of statements might repulse some of you who already have preconceptions about this issue. That's why I believe we should avoid going down that road.

Rape is an avenue of evolutionary success but most children are not born via rape & I don't think anyone would consider rape the ideal form of reproductive (even from a pure cold & calculating mindset I'd imagine children born as a product of rape are probably less likely to reproduce themselves than children born of a happy couple).

I agree with you that evolution is amoral but that doesn't necessarily imply we need god to be moral. We can simply observe that our fellow beings, society & try to create a world that minimizes suffering. This can all be done secularly (and imo should be done secularly)

Amoral, that's the word, morality is a social-construct, in essence if all of these are just material reality and devoid from any spiritual sense, hence all of these IDEAS of morality are just product of tradition that we created along the way, while in essence morality is an arbiter.

I mean peoples already come-out with the idea that language itself doesn't really convey any meaning, but it just direct to another subset of text or words, like the post-structuralist for instance, the idea of virtues, values and morality itself are social-construct and not intrinsic is not something new, but if we try to contemplate that thesis with rape for instance, then things start to get really shaky.

Could be. It's possible & there's no way to know otherwise (that this is not a dream).

The fact that it feels real doesn't prove anything. If life didn't feel real we wouldn't take it seriously. It'd be like a boring game of Monopoly that people would walk away from. All the pains & pleasures make it feel real.

The Buddhists would argue it's not real (and the ideal is, like the unsatisfactory game of Monopoly, to get up from the table) but because it feels real we should treat our fellow beings with the utmost compassion. At a younger age I thought the idea that life, feeling, thinking, sensation was inherently unsatisfactory & should be abandoned) as absurd & distasteful but in my old age it's strikes much more of a chord with me.

It's not like that. When you were dreaming, and you suffer pain, heartache, fear, those pain felt real as well, you can't say that those are not real whatever pain or happiness that you felt during your short nap or 8 hours sleep. But when you wake up to a bigger reality, you'll not curse God why He gave you that dream, why you must suffer for 8 hours, you instead feel relieve that it's only a dream. And that is how our 60 or 80 years of existence compared to eternity, it's even much more shorter than a short 10 min nap during your lunch break.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It's not like that. When you were dreaming, and you suffer pain, heartache, fear, those pain felt real as well, you can't say that those are not real whatever pain or happiness that you felt during your short nap or 8 hours sleep. But when you wake up to a bigger reality, you'll not curse God why He gave you that dream, why you must suffer for 8 hours, you instead feel relieve that it's only a dream. Our 60 years reality compare to eternity, it's even much more shorter than a short 10 min nap during your lunch break.

The "life is a dream" metaphor is a powerful one that is frequently found in the religions of East Asia. It fits well with the "this life is an illusion" core of both Hinduism and Buddhism. The nature of what actual Reality is is usually more vague. It is just a very different framework for reality from the western religions. Which is a better depiction of reality is still unknown and likely will remain so.

 

[H4run]

The "life is a dream" metaphor is a powerful one that is frequently found in the religions of East Asia. It fits well with the "this life is an illusion" core of both Hinduism and Buddhism. The nature of what actual Reality is is usually more vague. It is just a very different framework for reality from the western religions. Which is a better depiction of reality is still unknown and likely will remain so.

Well, it might be expressed in many philosophy, culture or religions, but I'm discussing this as an idea not as a certain cultural or religious view. What I mean over here is not like that one haiku by Nobunaga, it's simply an expression that two reality where times and sensorics perception dwarf the other the bigger reality will pretty much trivialized the smaller one. Peoples may or may not believe with that but that's not the point, the point is regarding the answer of Erika's commentary regarding God's intervention.

This world is just a phase of a bigger reality that come after life, comparing this reality that's finite to the other reality which is infinite, is like comparing a 15 minute short nap with our 60 years of life, and that's not even a fair comparison, because the comparison between finite and infinite is zero according to ratio. Peoples who got their face drag from the day they were born till the day they were passed away, may feel content under God's grace and never hold grudge to any suffering that they suffered previously. While the corrupt son of politician that been silver-spoon from the day they were born till the day they were passed away in their lavish bed with their beloved son and family, will feel as if he never had any contentment and joy in his whole-life under God's justice, it's like us who left our nightmare and nice-dream behind to continue with our-life and never cling into it, in the face of eternity our finite joy and suffering will become meaningless and forgotten.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well, it might be expressed in many philosophy, culture or religions, but I'm discussing this as an idea not as a certain cultural or religious view. What I mean over here is not like that one haiku by Nobunaga, it's simply an expression that two reality where times and sensorics perception dwarf the other the bigger reality will pretty much trivialized the smaller one. Peoples may or may not believe with that but that's not the point, the point is regarding the answer of Erika's commentary regarding God's intervention.

This world is just a phase of a bigger reality that come after life, comparing this reality that's finite to the other reality which is infinite, is like comparing a 15 minute short nap with our 60 years of life, and that's not even a fair comparison, because the comparison between finite and infinite is zero according to ratio. Peoples who got their face drag from the day they were born till the day they were passed away, may feel content under God's grace and never hold grudge to any suffering that they suffered previously. While the corrupt son of politician that been silver-spoon from the day they were born till the day they were passed away in their lavish bed with their beloved son and family, will feel as if he never had any contentment and joy in his whole-life under God's justice, it's like us who left our nightmare and nice-dream behind to continue with our-life and never cling into it, in the face of eternity our finite joy and suffering will become meaningless and forgotten.

I understand what you are saying. In western religions, usually, said afterlife, infinite reality has two parts: one for those that believe/practice something specific and one for those that don't. Those specifics required for the better afterlife vary across time and place and sect. Now if everyone, regardless, gets the same infinite reality afterlife, that changes the equation significantly. The Sufis have a pretty interesting view of such matters.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, it might be expressed in many philosophy, culture or religions, but I'm discussing this as an idea not as a certain cultural or religious view. What I mean over here is not like that one haiku by Nobunaga, it's simply an expression that two reality where times and sensorics perception dwarf the other the bigger reality will pretty much trivialized the smaller one. Peoples may or may not believe with that but that's not the point, the point is regarding the answer of Erika's commentary regarding God's intervention.

This world is just a phase of a bigger reality that come after life, comparing this reality that's finite to the other reality which is infinite, is like comparing a 15 minute short nap with our 60 years of life, and that's not even a fair comparison, because the comparison between finite and infinite is zero according to ratio. Peoples who got their face drag from the day they were born till the day they were passed away, may feel content under God's grace and never hold grudge to any suffering that they suffered previously. While the corrupt son of politician that been silver-spoon from the day they were born till the day they were passed away in their lavish bed with their beloved son and family, will feel as if he never had any contentment and joy in his whole-life under God's justice, it's like us who left our nightmare and nice-dream behind to continue with our-life and never cling into it, in the face of eternity our finite joy and suffering will become meaningless and forgotten.

In 60s France, there was a popular slogan in street protests: "Is there life before death?".
But there it was clearly meant in irony=> ok, there is the possibility life continues, even more grandiose. But if not, it'd be good if at least there is something livable now too.

Besides, even if something other/better/more important awaits us, it should not at all mean this life has to be bad/it's ok. I'd go for both lives being pleasant, despite this one being knowingly unpleasant for many people.

 

[H4run]

But there it was clearly meant in irony=> ok, there is the possibility life continues, even more grandiose. But if not, it'd be good if at least there is something livable now too.

Besides, even if something other/better/more important awaits us, it should not at all mean this life has to be bad/it's ok.

Sigh, for me it's not like life is sucks ergo God is exist. I mean, there are peoples having a good life, living their life to the maxed, well at least they appeared to be like that, behind the crime or not is out of question. Life is indeed harder and more uncertain post-pandemic, but there's a section of my life that I living a time that I can't even imagine pre-pandemic, and still during those the up and down of my life I decided somewhere between my mid twenties that there's a God, not for my convenience because I did gave up so many of my pleasures as well due to that conclusion.

Great chunk of my earlier life, to give you an analogy, is like I went up to my bed then wake up to be in the prisoner boat anchored in Seyda Neen, and I continue living as an npc there without asking "Why am I now living as an npc in Morrowind game??", we live in a perfect, organized stage for our existence yet I just continued living without questioning what's the meaning of this existence aside of paying taxes for whatever we purchased. The altercation of days and nights, the design of nature that surrounded us, the design of our body, mind, the society, for me those are traces of A prime cause without a cause. It's more convenience logically to say that these order are the result of an Organizer, not like coming out of random incidence.

 

[Kyriakos]

While being a NPC can be bad, some are in far worse position.
Ideally, one shouldn't even just be a NCO imo. I'd settle for (at the very least) baron.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I've heard both sides of the equally stupid notion: 1) that an atheist will drop all pretence to morality when it suits him 2) that the only reason a believer does good or avoids bad is a greed for reward or a fear of punishment

I've had people say to me that the reason they do something nice for someone or at least refrain from doing something bad is because their church/beliefs/god says they're supposed to. The implication is that if they had nobody/nothing telling them what to do, they'd choose the selfish option.

The idea that you do good things in anticipation of a good afterlife is baffling. You should do good things, regardless.

Whatever any afterlife might exist, one of my aims in life is to leave at least part of this world better than I found it, whether physically or socially. I don't need religion for that.

I remember a person of faith once saying that he didn't understand where agnostics and atheists get their sense of morality from. Fair enough. I wonder that about some people, too. But that's different from claiming that morality only comes from God/gods/religion. The idea that morality only comes from God/gods/religion is something that straightup frightens me about religious people (setting aside for a moment how insulting and arrogant it is). When they say that, they're telling me something about themselves: Not only are they saying that what's preventing them from oppressing or doing violence to others is their adherence to a religion, not a personal sense of right and wrong, but they're also saying that if their religion ever told them to oppress or do violence to others, they would. Yikes. Then I read about Lauren Boebert explicitly attacking freedom of religion and the separation of church and state. You think she would kill me if she thought her God wanted her to? In a split-second.


I think the world would improve dramatically if religion really were the opiate of the masses.

So... another woman who buys into the theocracy-is-good notion. I wonder how she'd feel in the Republic of Gilead if she wasn't one of the women chosen to be an Aunt or a Wife (Handmaid's Tale reference). Aunts are the only women allowed to read or write. Wives don't get to do that, but they do get to make Handmaids' and Marthas' lives a living hell, while only allowed to wear teal-colored dresses and occupy their time with knitting, gardening, painting, and tea parties with other Wives. They definitely don't get to participate in politics.

Funnily enough, right after posting above I was confronted with a story about religious Americans threatening the separation of church and state.

AP, 31 July 2023 - "Oklahoma parents, faith leaders and education group sue to stop US’s first public religious school"


Of note, both Oklahoma Republicans and Christians are among those marshaling to the defense of freedom of religion here. In my post above, I was going to add something like, "it always seems to be religious conservatives who threaten the separation of church and state the most" and blam, the very first news article I look at - I wasn't even looking for something apropos of this conversation, I was just browsing - throws the thought right back in my face.

Google apparently knows all these days.

There might be a compass, but orienteering is not just something one does well without practice. Particularly not through storms.

Far too many people these days wait for a GPS to tell them which direction they should go. They have no clue how to read a map or compass on their own and don't see why they should know that. Thinking for themselves is too much work.


There are plenty of back-and-forth examples going on in my own province regarding the idea that atheists have no sense of morality. I remember years ago, reading in the news about a mother whose kid was disabled and would not do well on a long bus ride to the nearest public school (there was no public school in their town for the kid's grade, and he would have to go out of town for that).

The only school that did offer junior high was a Catholic school. Some non-Catholic parents asked if they would mind sharing some space - even just one classroom, for the older non-Catholic kids so they wouldn't need that long bus ride.

The response of the Catholic parents ranged from a flat-out 'no' to one 'Christian' mom sneering at the mother of the disabled kid, saying, "Suck it up or move." Another Catholic parent stated that non-Catholic kids don't learn any morals, so that was why religion should be taught in all schools - "because they have to learn morals SOMEWHERE."

Does this make me respect the attitudes of Catholic schools here? Not in the slightest. It sure doesn't make me respect the parents who said such hateful things.

We had a provincial election recently, and people were curious as to who the new cabinet ministers would be. The former Minister of Education, Adriana LaGrange, is now the Minister of Health (nobody expects her to be competent at that, either). The current Minister of Education, Demetrios Nicolaides, used to be the Minister of Advanced Education. In that portfolio, he expressed his view of public schools: "They teach a radicalized, immoral ideology."

This guy is now in charge of those public schools he thinks are so radical and immoral. What could possibly go wrong, that didn't already go wrong under his predecessor's watch? (extra funding for Catholic and charter schools, cuts for public schools)

His successor in the Advanced Education portfolio is the sociopath with the 'let them eat cake' attitude toward homeless and disabled people (in her previous social services portfolio). Rajan Sawhney referred to the tens of thousands of people protesting the new racist, age and content-inappropriate, error-riddled daft curriculum as "noise."

We are so screwed.

 

[Narz]

That's a rather reactionary comment, and a large question mark hovers over that statistic or claim.

It is what it is.

You could argue people in impoverished areas with higher crime cling more to religion.

There's a book I read by a missionary who visits a tribe in the Amazon and tries to convert them to Christianity. He goes to great effort, learning their language, living with them for many years but it's all in vain. They don't buy that they are sinners, they think he's ridiculous to worship someone he's never met and no one he's met has ever met that he read about in a book and they don't feel the need to be saved.

Don't sleep there are snakes it's called.

Anyway you might call me a hypocrite because I do find Buddhist ideas or ideal conduct interesting but that's because it's not meant to be commandments that you must follow or face punishment but more like prescription (the four noble truths read like a doctors perspection. Dukkha (suffering, dissatisfactoriness being the disease, craving being the cause and the 8fold path being the cure). Of course Buddhist society is not without violence as well.

Anyways you're not one I like to argue with, I can grant your point that perhaps the deeply pious of almost every religion would be less violent than average but religion as a cultural artifact I find distasteful. And I don't see how anyone could argue that Judeo-Christian religions are not authoritarian (Hinduism too)

 

[H4run]

Anyway you might call me a hypocrite because I do find Buddhist ideas or ideal conduct interesting but that's because it's not meant to be commandments that you must follow or face punishment but more like prescription

Nah I can understand that, it's almost like Confucianism in a way even though Confucianism is less about spirituality and more about tradition, there are so many variation of Budhism that peoples can always pick and it's less scriptural as well.

Anyways you're not one I like to argue with

Yea me too man I don't want to argue with you as well and ruin the mood but I always up for a nice discussion, but the thing is I'm not even here to discuss about religion, I can and I did in many thread for over the years (that's mainly what I did here for more than 10 years) and it start to tire me a lot, I just here to discuss about God's existence without derailing to any particular religion.

religion as a cultural artifact I find distasteful.

It's quite sad that you feel that way as I really like you as a person and I'm religious myself, but it's important to consider that many people find the tendency of some atheists to place themselves on a high pedestal and perceive religion as a trouble-maker equally distasteful. They question why people kill each other in the name of God, but what I mostly see is people being killed for resources, xenophobia/racism, nationalism, and even ideology like democracy or communism, those are reek from blood and genocide. People talk about how religion is spread by the sword, but secular Democracy is also globally installed through guns and bullets, bombing people back to the Stone Age because they think they know better how to a country.

I mean there are layers and perspectives to consider. But lets just leave it as that.

 

[Narz]

It's quite sad that you feel that way as I really like you as a person and I'm religious myself

Like I said it's cultural not religious individuals I have a problem with.

Like in the United States without Christianity as a cultural force we would be far ahead of where we are now. But some individual lady who quietly reads her bible is no problem.

I have no problem if people have different beliefs than me but when they try to push for special privileges or think society should be influenced by their ideas things become problematic.

A Muslim majority country, all good. A Muslim theocracy I wouldn't want to even visit (would you?)

but it's important to consider that many people find the tendency of some atheists to place themselves on a high pedestal and perceive religion as a trouble-maker equally distasteful

I imagine most atheists like that probably come from a background of religious oppression or abuse from their families which they are reacting to.

I was forced to attend church until age 13 but I never was told I was going to hell or anything like that, it was more a tradition in the family.

I did goto a crazy boarding school for a time where they would berate us as sinners and addicts and tried to force everyone to go to AA type groups.

Adamant atheists are kinda like vegan fanatics they tend to push away support rather than garner it.

 

[H4run]

A Muslim theocracy I wouldn't want to even visit (would you?)

What exactly is a Muslim theocracy? Are the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Brunei examples of Muslim theocracies? I mean, I should ask myself why I wouldn't want to visit these places. Or is it the Afghanistan? A country that's been embroiled in wars against major players since the 1800s (from the Great Games) till today, always shifting from one instability to another and never getting a chance for statecraft or to form their own government over such a long period of time can be intimidating to visit. However, I find it far less horrifying than the prospect of visiting atheist North Korea, which also feels isolated in a way, albeit not as much as Afghanistan.

I imagine most atheists like that probably come from a background of religious oppression or abuse from their families which they are reacting to.

I was forced to attend church until age 13 but I never was told I was going to hell or anything like that, it was more a tradition in the family.

I did goto a crazy boarding school for a time where they would berate us as sinners and addicts and tried to force everyone to go to AA type groups.

Adamant atheists are kinda like vegan fanatics they tend to push away support rather than garner it.

People project their expectations onto their children in so many ways, and it doesn't have to be related to religion. Children in South Korea, Japan, China, and even Singapore also suffer due to rigid schedules and high competition among their peers, which are mainly instigated and rooted in their households. I have a Chinese friend who has had a heart problem since he was in high school due to his parents enforcing a strict study schedule, which consisted of studying at school followed by a marathon study session at home with a private teacher till night all weekdays, and video-games only at weeked, then boom heart-problem and there are many atheistic household like this as well.

It might be that understanding that there are things more valuable in this world than material gain and material success can have a positive impact on people. Learning that there are certain things that are beyond our control can also make us less obsessed and ambitious about ourselves and children. The perspective might differ if you think that you only live once and you must either succeed in becoming what you want now or your life will be or is a disappointment.

 

[Kyriakos]

The country should at least formally allow you to be atheist if you want to, or even speak against religion. People are state executed in Saudi just for speaking against islam or trying to change religion.

etc

 

[H4run]

The country should at least formally allow you to be atheist if you want to, or even speak against religion. People are state executed in Saudi just for speaking against islam or trying to change religion.

View attachment 668687

etc

The point is? I can also quoted for you the brutal treatment and mass-beating by Greek authority against immigrant. Or I can quote for you regarding systematical racism in US and police brutality and make it as if it is an integral of democracy. This is the very reason why I stay away from this thread most of the time, it's the question whether God is exist or not, not a place to overwhelm the theistic side with random wide never ending subjects, lol, like a free lynching session for the theistic side, very bad.

 

[Narz]

What exactly is a Muslim theocracy? Are the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Brunei examples of Muslim theocracies?

I was thinking of Saudi Arabia or Iran but honestly I don't know much about the Muslim world but anywhere where I can executed for having unauthorized opinions I wouldn't want to visit.

Or is it the Afghanistan? A country that's been embroiled in wars against major players since the 1800s (from the Great Games) till today, always shifting from one instability to another and never getting a chance for statecraft or to form their own government over such a long period of time can be intimidating to visit.

As I said religion thrives when hope falters.

People project their expectations onto their children in so many ways, and it doesn't have to be related to religion. Children in South Korea, Japan, China, and even Singapore also suffer due to rigid schedules and high competition among their peers, which are mainly instigated and rooted in their households. I have a Chinese friend who has had a heart problem since he was in high school due to his parents enforcing a strict study schedule, which consisted of studying at school followed by a marathon study session at home with a private teacher till night all weekdays, and video-games only at weeked, then boom heart-problem and there are many atheistic household like this as well.

It might be that understanding that there are things more valuable in this world than material gain and material success can have a positive impact on people. Learning that there are certain things that are beyond our control can also make us less obsessed and ambitious about ourselves and children. The perspective might differ if you think that you only live once and you must either succeed in becoming what you want now or your life will be or is a disappointment.

But it's not as if we have only two choices, buy totally into societal norms of success of into our local superstitions.

 

[H4run]

I was thinking of Saudi Arabia or Iran but honestly I don't know much about the Muslim world but anywhere where I can executed for having unauthorized opinions I wouldn't want to visit.

I'm not a shia and pretty much not om favor Iranian stance and disagree with their religious view, but I would visit Iran, I don't think they will kidnap you for having a different view, as for the masses of course you should mind yourself, I would not for instance dish Khomeini there, I will try to be respectful, I mean like in any other places.

 

[Narz]

The point is? I can also quoted for you the brutal treatment and mass-beating by Greek authority against immigrant. Or I can quote for you regarding systematical racism in US and police brutality and make it as if it is an integral of democracy. This is the very reason why I stay away from this thread most of the time, it's the question whether God is exist or not, not a place to overwhelm the theistic side with random wide never ending subjects, lol, like a free lynching session for the theistic side, very bad.

Corruption is bad, but state sanctioned murder is not comparable.

It's like comparing US arenas to ancient Roman ones because at both you can get trampled and killed if one is unlucky

 

[Kyriakos]

The point is? I can also quoted for you the brutal treatment and mass-beating by Greek authority against immigrant. Or I can quote for you regarding systematical racism in US and police brutality and make it as if it is an integral of democracy. This is the very reason why I stay away from this thread most of the time, it's the question whether God is exist or not, not a place to overwhelm the theistic side with random wide never ending subjects, lol, like a free lynching session for the theistic side, very bad.

The point is that Saudi is a muslim theocracy, which you were wondering if it isn't.

What exactly is a Muslim theocracy? Are the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Brunei examples of Muslim theocracies?

Now what immigrants and police have to do with it, is less clear

 

[Narz]

I'm not a shia and pretty much not om favor Iranian stance and disagree with their religious view, but I would visit Iran, I don't think they will kidnap you for having a different view, as for the masses of course you should mind yourself, I would not for instance dish Khomeini there, I will try to be respectful, I mean like in any other places.

If visiting a friend I won't intentionally disrespect them obviously.

However if they inform me if I inadvertently disrespect them they will kill me I may be less inclined to stop by for tea.