What if the Slave Trade Didn't Happen?

[Traitorfish]

AS to the idea that slavery hurt Africa, I believe that to be false. Consider the statement of King Gezo when he was told by the British in the 19th century that Britain had outlawed the slave trade: " The slave trade has been the ruling principle of my people. It is the source of their glory and wealth. Their songs celebrate their victories and the mother lulls the child to sleep with notes of triumph over an enemy reduced to slavery. Can I, by signing.... a treaty, change the sentiments of a whole people?" (quoted from Niall Ferguson, esteemed British Historian).

The ruling class cannot be taken as fairly representing the greater body of the populace. The Highland lairds, for instance, gleefully pursued the profitable expulsion of tenants in the 18th century, but from the perspective of the average clansman it amounted to little more than a campaign of ethnic cleansing.

 

[North King]

AS to the idea that slavery hurt Africa, I believe that to be false. Consider the statement of King Gezo when he was told by the British in the 19th century that Britain had outlawed the slave trade: " The slave trade has been the ruling principle of my people. It is the source of their glory and wealth. Their songs celebrate their victories and the mother lulls the child to sleep with notes of triumph over an enemy reduced to slavery. Can I, by signing.... a treaty, change the sentiments of a whole people?" (quoted from Niall Ferguson, esteemed British Historian).

Slavery enriches some people, obviously, and those richer groups tend to thrive in comparison to those who had significant numbers enslaved. Those who thrive tend to be in the dominant position at the end of the colonial era. So I don't see how that statement proves anything -- you're basically just stating that the slave trade was good for the groups that managed to exploit it. The groups that were enslaved would probably disagree with that overall assessment. At the same time, you have to consider that removing millions of people from any society of that era would have been damaging to their manpower if nothing else. It is easy to treat slaves as commodities, but as productive members of their society, trading them away had much different effects than trading away any other good.

 

[Dachs]

I recently read an interesting econometrics paper - don't remember who did it other than "it wasn't AJR" - on correlating effects of slavery on local population in terms of numbers enslaved with modern GDP. In addition to the issue of losing people straight-up, the warfare that slavery generated and was generated by caused dislocation and migratory behavior that further disrupted any semblance of economic growth. I wasn't entirely convinced by some of the methodology - it's more complex than I'm making it out to be - but the idea was at least intriguing. Maybe I'll look for the reference later, when I have access to JSTOR again.

 

[Masada]

Eliminating the Atlantic trade in humans wouldn't necessarily slow down the trade heading north or east.

Yes, it would magnificiently. Just think for a second what both parties are trading in: either slaves almost exclusively, or substantially the products of slaves.

It might not even effect the supply/demand equation much, since a lot of the slave-taking that occurred was in response to increased demand from the American colonies

... the impulse goes both way.

Actually, having slaves (or any significant labor supply), creates the greater incentive to come up with more inventions. If there's not a labor supply there, then the work would often just not get attempted.

It's the other way round bud; cheap labour actually discourages technical innovation, by increasing the cost of capital relative to labour.

 

[Silurian]

Also if the European countries transfered their own peasants who would have provided the cannon fodder

 

[ParkCungHee]

Didn't notice the Henry, nor never heard that one, though given Oliver's attempt to depopulate the island by making us all shorter by a head each, that one not suprisingly slipped through the Irish education system.

As bad as Oliver Cromwell's Irish policy was, Henry was talking about depopulating Ireland of the Gealic Irish entirely.

 

[Masada]

As bad as Oliver Cromwell's Irish policy was, Henry was talking about depopulating Ireland of the Gealic Irish entirely.

You make that sound like a Bad Thing. It isn't. New-Eire in the Americas anyone?

 

[ParkCungHee]

You make that sound like a Bad Thing. It isn't. New-Eire in the Americas anyone?

Yeah, I guess that is the conclusion to this little alt history.

 

[Masada]

No, that would involve the destruction of England at the hands of vengeful nu-Irish.

 

[ParkCungHee]

No, that would involve the destruction of England at the hands of vengeful nu-Irish.

Work in the Nazis and you're the next Turtledove.

 

[Communisto]

time traveling nazis

 

[Dachs]

Time traveling Nazis with AKs

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Time travelling Nazis with AKs in SPACE!

 

[Zardnaar]

Time travelling Nazis with AKs in SPACE that fight ninja robot dinosaur PIRATES.

 

[Dachs]

guys

turtledove actually did the time traveling, the nazis, and the time travelers with AKs

he didn't do ninja robot dinosaur pirates

 

[Communisto]

Also one time Nova Scotia broke off from North America and became Atlantis which was actually America and had problems with the issue of slavery.

 

[Traitorfish]

guys

turtledove actually did the time traveling, the nazis, and the time travelers with AKs

he didn't do ninja robot dinosaur pirates

He ain't dead yet.

 

[Karalysia]

But he did do invading alien space lizard imperialists, Nazis in space and secret American giant super secret spaceship. And that seems close enough to me.

 

[Lord Baal]

But he did do invading alien space lizard imperialists, Nazis in space and secret American giant super secret spaceship. And that seems close enough to me.

It would be better if they were flying Alien Space Bats.

 

[Plotinus]

Moderator Action: On-topic, perhaps, people?