What is a good ally of the United States?

[Bobo the Ape]

In fact, I find it odd that anyone would see the US and France as anything but allies. Other than Iraq, the USA and France have worked together on pretty much every occasion I can think of, right back to the American revolution.

And France is the only significant Western European nation the US has never fought. While I'll probably get slammed for this I believe that one of the reasons we have so many little tiffs is because we're so alike. I fight with my brother all the time for the same reason. Doesn't mean we stop being brothers.

 

[kulade]

Originally posted by Bobo the Ape


And France is the only significant Western European nation the US has never fought. While I'll probably get slammed for this I believe that one of the reasons we have so many little tiffs is because we're so alike. I fight with my brother all the time for the same reason. Doesn't mean we stop being brothers.

heres my slamming: the US has a "interacive forgien policy" while france is mindin there own buisnesses. This is probably the biggest reason they hate eachother and a HUGE difference between the two that could keep us from ever being close allys

 

[GrandAdmiral]

I wouldn't say France minds its own business. They are just better at hiding it, making it appear as if they mind their own business. They ferry their troops around all the time it just doesn't get as much attention. Not that thats not a smart thing to do.

 

[Bobo the Ape]

@kulade

the US has a "interacive forgien policy" while france is mindin there own buisnesses.

Yet the facts don't back you up. Look at how many troops and how many countries France is involved in. Look at their arms deals. Read some of the debates about the direction of the EU.

This is probably the biggest reason they hate eachother and a HUGE difference between the two that could keep us from ever being close allys

Ever? We have been allies through most of US history and still are. French and US troops are fighting side by side right now in Haiti and Afghanistan. Their intelligence agencies are working very close together.

Surely you have something more than "freedom" fries to back your claim.

 

[Peri]

Originally posted by EmpireofVirtue
A country which believes in the superiority of the United States and defends it is a good ally.

A country which disputes the superiority of the United States is an ennemy.

As a consequence Canada, England and Australia are good allies. Germany, Russia and France are ennemies.

Spain is an enemy to now so why not avoid confusion and just invade everyone. It is after all your manifest destiny to rid the world of inferior races (especially gay people).

 

[Peri]

Originally posted by EmpireofVirtue


Isn't the fact the United States were there to save the world in 1941 a sign of God?

Also the fact that GWB was appointed by god to rid the world of the heresy of Islam and liberals.

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by EmpireofVirtue
Any country which support the US superiority is an ally of the US.

America isn't superior, they're just bigger. And I don't believe Britain supports the superiority of the United States. If we could replace you then we would in a second.

 

[Tassadar]

I think there is a difference between a good US ally and a good Bush's administration ally.

France as exemple is a very good ally for US, but not for the Bush's adm.

I would say a good ally is like a friend, able to support you in time of need, but also with enough self awarness to do not fall into the same white water.

 

[Free Enterprise]

A good ally would be one who knows when to support the values of the United States and is willing to lend aid in times of need (if conditions are proper).

An ally could do many things however if they are a good country and a good ally rather than just an ally they will not commit immoral actions if possible. Even if that means breaking an alliance. However if they believe that there is a problem a good ally would go about it in a fair way and try to explain the problem. There would be attempts to compromise (if compromise is justified).

Therefore a good ally knows when to be an "ally" and when not to. If one of your allies became corrupted or turned into a malefactor you shouldn't really help them commit those actions. You should try to help them escape the problem though without excessive punishment (unless situation permits).

Conclusion: Each action requires taking into account the situation and enviroment. Thus many different traits and circumstances should be taken into account. Sometimes this means you have to end the alliance. In other cases you can strengthen it though.

 

[Archer 007]

I dont believe in allies. I believe in "friends" to help us reach goals.

 

[sysyphus]

Originally posted by MrPresident
My definition of an American ally in its most simple form is a country that doesn't piss off America.

Extrapolating your definition to other countries, nobody is an ally to anybody.

 

[Sims2789]

How about, "A Democratic country that does what is right." This would include France and Germany and the other anti-war countries.

 

[Sinapus]

I'm reminded of a remark about democracy made by a cynical politician: we'll let the people vote, and decide who's on the ballot. So I voted None of the Above.

I'll borrow from a blogger whose writings I respect and adding some of my own variations. I think they make it easier to categorize various countries than the poll's choices.

Level 3 Friend: Those who will fight beside us.
Level 2 Friend: Those who align with us, but give more passive contributions. (Basing, diplomatic and intel support. Non-combat support. Etc.)
Level 1 Friend: Friendly bystanders. Doesn't try to block our policy and occasionally provides some help.
Neutrals: Sometimes impeding us, sometimes helping.
Level 1 Enemy: Nasty looks in our direction and doing their best to put sand into the diplomatic gears but in practice making little difference. (That one is verbatim. Too good not to keep.)
Level 2 Enemy: Actively working against us but not fighting us.
Level 3 Enemy: A little list. They won't be missed. Probably mentioned in a "why don't you go after THIS country?!" posting about Iraq.

I would also note that those nations that say "we are with you" and then try to grab the wheel and force US foreign policy to match their desires, aren't Level 3 Friends. In addition, threatening to abandon another ally because you think it will stop the US from doing what it's going to do anyway isn't a very good idea either and that other ally might want to wonder if your nation is really an ally. Claiming nations are "lackeys and poodles" because they are working with the US, or claiming they "missed a good opportunity to be quiet" when their leaders say something in support of the US is probably not anything that makes you friend or foe, it just makes you look incredibly petulant.

 

[allhailIndia]

There is no such thing as an American ally

No nation has permanent friends or interests, only permanent interests, Lord Palmerston if I am not mistaken.

No nation is indispensable to the US, but the US itself. IT would be wise to understand that and get over any snubs the US may hand.

If any nation feels that the US will be its ally forever and will always agree and fight by it, it is sadly mistaken. The US always has its interests, before it puts its allies interests ahead. The trick for any country, is to convince the US that assisting it would be in the US's interests

E.G. How Britain got the US to provide supplies against Hitler in the Second World War.
How the Pakistanis convinced the US to support the Mujahiddeen in Afghanistan.

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by MrPresident
At the moment I cannot see France as an ally of America. They are certainly not enemies or anything of the sort but they are not allies. My definition of an American ally in its most simple form is a country that doesn't piss off America.

A country whose foreign policy consists of not pissing of the US is not an ally but a vassal. I would be ashamed to live in a country like that.
A real ally is one who shares the same goals because it shares the same values, and who does not hesitate to tell the US government when it is making a big mistake. And if the US listened more to those allies, it might have avoided some very costly mistakes.

When de Gaulle severely criticised the Vietnam war as being doom to a failure similar to France's Indochina war, he certainly pissed of the US and was called an anti-American. Yet he was right, and the warning he gave to the US was valuable and might have saved it a lot of pain had it been taken into account.
And when Chirac, even if it was for domestic reasons and not out of any moral principle, said that the UN's containment in Iraq was working and that any occupation of Iraq would be long and bloody, he was labelled "anti-American" again and ignored. Well, turns out his analysis was much more correct than that of Bush, and that the neo-cons fantasy of Iraqis welcoming soldiers with flowers and declaring a pro-US democracy had led the US to enter Iraq barely prepared to the real job of reconstructing the country.

Listening to your allies and taking into account their advice and perspective is part of being a great power, something someone like Bush will never accept.

 

[allhailIndia]

There are of course of friends of the US who, like all good friends, try to point out the right path, and are usually accused of being smarty pants, but they are more likely people who wouldn't follow the US, if their interests aren't at stake.

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by allhailIndia
but they are more likely people who wouldn't follow the US, if their interests aren't at stake.

In theory, true enough - but then while would a nation do something against its interests just out of a desire to please the US? Would the US do the same?
And anyway, most of the time the interests of the nations in question are much the same as that of the US; to go back to my exemple, it was in the interest of France that the West won the cold war and that Al Qaida is crushed. But it turned out that the Vietnam war (or at least the way it was fought) was a mistake in the broader Cold War conflict and that while Iraq might turn out to be a success in the end expecting little resistance there was a mistake as well.

And I am not claiming that France was blameless either; God knows I hate Chirac's arrogance, which is second only to Bush's. I continue to think for exemple that France should either send troops to Iraq if it can get them to be under UN command, or reenforce its troops in Afghanistan to free coalition troops otherwise. But the fact remains that whatever the feelings behind it the advice was sound in both case and in both case it was ignored because "good US allies do not question the wisdom of the US government".

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by Kinniken
A country whose foreign policy consists of not pissing of the US is not an ally but a vassal. I would be ashamed to live in a country like that.

You want your country to piss of the world's most powerful superpower? That seems incredibily stupid to me.

Originally posted by Kinniken
A real ally is one who shares the same goals because it shares the same values, and who does not hesitate to tell the US government when it is making a big mistake. And if the US listened more to those allies, it might have avoided some very costly mistakes.

Who the hell is anyone else to tell my country (or the US) that they are making a mistake? Our foreign policy is determined by our own national self-interest and for another country to tell my country that they know more about what it good for us then we do is amazingly arrogant. If you disagree fine, just don't preach at us. We do what we think is right and you do what you think is right and let's leave it at that.

Originally posted by Kinniken
When de Gaulle severely criticised the Vietnam war as being doom to a failure similar to France's Indochina war, he certainly pissed of the US and was called an anti-American. Yet he was right, and the warning he gave to the US was valuable and might have saved it a lot of pain had it been taken into account.

You think America changed anything to do with their policy in Vietnam because De Gaulle pointed at France's own failed foreign policy? Compare the French approach to the Vietnam war with the British approach.

Originally posted by Kinniken
And when Chirac, even if it was for domestic reasons and not out of any moral principle, said that the UN's containment in Iraq was working and that any occupation of Iraq would be long and bloody, he was labelled "anti-American" again and ignored.

Key word being 'ignored'.

Originally posted by Kinniken
Well, turns out his analysis was much more correct than that of Bush, and that the neo-cons fantasy of Iraqis welcoming soldiers with flowers and declaring a pro-US democracy had led the US to enter Iraq barely prepared to the real job of reconstructing the country.

You don't reconstructure a nation in a year. I think it is a little premature to declare Chirac was right, especially considering that he was acting out of pure national self-interest (massive oil contracts anyone?).

Originally posted by Kinniken
Listening to your allies and taking into account their advice and perspective is part of being a great power, something someone like Bush will never accept.

Let's not kid ourselves here. If America wants to do something they consider a matter of national security then they will regardless of what an ally tells them. You are simply arguing that Bush should have been more diplomatic and made it look like America was listening when really it wasn't. And on that point I agree with you. Bush should have been more diplomatic. However that doesn't change the fact that listening to one's allies basically means paying mere lip-service to their national self-interest. Diplomacy is getting what you want without anyone knowing that what you've got is what you wanted.

 

[CurtSibling]

"What is a good ally of the United States?" - A giant robot eagle called 'Zebedeezer'...

 

[Portuguese]

only an occupied or 1 with a puppet leadership, i'd say.

I'm becoming more anti-empire by the day...