What is "business casual"?

[Valka D'Ur]

Why are jeans not appropriate?

It's a bank. The part where they deal face to face with the public. Jeans don't offend me in settings where they're appropriate.

There are all sorts of situations where jeans aren't appropriate. I never wore them when doing my student teaching practicum, for example, or when I did my organ exams and recitals. I didn't wear them when doing the census or working for Elections Canada. I didn't wear them when doing front of house work for any of the theatre companies I was involved with (one of them had a strict dress code which meant having to show up in black slacks, white blouse, and put on a black vest (I skipped the tie and nobody complained). I did wear dresses when doing front of house in costume.

About the only time that I did wear jeans when others pitched a fit that they weren't appropriate was at the opening night party for the first musical I worked on (wine & cheese party for the patrons). I got scolded for not wearing a dress, and when I pointed out that my job in the play involved crawling around in the rafters and sitting in a hot lighting booth for half the night, plus climbing up and down ladders - and for which a dress would be a completely impractical thing to wear - they said, "You should have brought one with you and changed after the show."

Yeah, right. Change where? That was two years before we had a dedicated props room where I could have just closed the door for a couple of minutes' privacy. Otherwise, I'd have had to use the same dressing room as the female cast, and they wouldn't have been happy about that.

So I didn't change. At least it didn't offend one of the patrons, who as it turns out, was friends with my dad. It surprised the snooty crew heads that I'd know Somebody Important, but that's their problem (this was before I became a crew head myself - and I never tried to dictate what my assistants should wear).

If it had been practical to change for the party, I'd have done so. It wasn't, so I made the best of an awkward situation.

The bank teller didn't have this problem.

 

[Lexicus]

It's a bank. The part where they deal face to face with the public. Jeans don't offend me in settings where they're appropriate.

There are all sorts of situations where jeans aren't appropriate. I never wore them when doing my student teaching practicum, for example, or when I did my organ exams and recitals. I didn't wear them when doing the census or working for Elections Canada. I didn't wear them when doing front of house work for any of the theatre companies I was involved with (one of them had a strict dress code which meant having to show up in black slacks, white blouse, and put on a black vest (I skipped the tie and nobody complained). I did wear dresses when doing front of house in costume.

About the only time that I did wear jeans when others pitched a fit that they weren't appropriate was at the opening night party for the first musical I worked on (wine & cheese party for the patrons). I got scolded for not wearing a dress, and when I pointed out that my job in the play involved crawling around in the rafters and sitting in a hot lighting booth for half the night, plus climbing up and down ladders - and for which a dress would be a completely impractical thing to wear - they said, "You should have brought one with you and changed after the show."

Yeah, right. Change where? That was two years before we had a dedicated props room where I could have just closed the door for a couple of minutes' privacy. Otherwise, I'd have had to use the same dressing room as the female cast, and they wouldn't have been happy about that.

So I didn't change. At least it didn't offend one of the patrons, who as it turns out, was friends with my dad. It surprised the snooty crew heads that I'd know Somebody Important, but that's their problem (this was before I became a crew head myself - and I never tried to dictate what my assistants should wear).

If it had been practical to change for the party, I'd have done so. It wasn't, so I made the best of an awkward situation.

The bank teller didn't have this problem.

None of this answers the question of why jeans are inappropriate, period. Why are jeans inappropriate in a bank or anywhere else?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

None of this answers the question of why jeans are inappropriate, period. Why are jeans inappropriate in a bank or anywhere else?

Okay, either customs are very different where you are, or you're being willfully obtuse.

 

[PhroX]

We used to have a dress code in our office - smart shirt, tie, etc. Then lockdown happened and everyone worked from home wearing whatever they wanted to. Now we're back in the office (well, those who want be to are), but we clearly demonstrated that we can work perfectly well without a dress code so no-one bothers anymore. I'm in a t-shirt and some casual cargo trousers.

As for dress codes being "custom", that's hardly a justification for them. Plenty of dumb, useless and even downright harmful things are customs. If customs are worth respecting, then they need to be justifiable on their own merits.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

We used to have a dress code in our office - smart shirt, tie, etc. Then lockdown happened and everyone worked from home wearing whatever they wanted to. Now we're back in the office (well, those who want be to are), but we clearly demonstrated that we can work perfectly well without a dress code so no-one bothers anymore. I'm in a t-shirt and some casual cargo trousers.

As for dress codes being "custom", that's hardly a justification for them. Plenty of dumb, useless and even downright harmful things are customs. If customs are worth respecting, then they need to be justifiable on their own merits.

Wearing slacks instead of jeans is not harmful.

The people who guard Buckingham Palace while having to wear those ridiculous hats? Yeah, that's harmful. If memory serves, there were some who experienced heat-related illnesses and had to be taken away for medical treatment. But that doesn't mean they should all wear jeans.

 

[PhroX]

Wearing slacks instead of jeans is not harmful.

The people who guard Buckingham Palace while having to wear those ridiculous hats? Yeah, that's harmful. If memory serves, there were some who experienced heat-related illnesses and had to be taken away for medical treatment. But that doesn't mean they should all wear jeans.

I wasn't saying that that particular custom was harmful. I was pointing out that using "custom" to defend behaviour without any other justifications is nonsense.

And, you know what, wearing jeans instead of slacks isn't harmful, so why do you object to it?

 

[Lexicus]

Okay, either customs are very different where you are, or you're being willfully obtuse.

No, customs are not any different where I am. I am asking you to rationally justify the custom. Why do you think there should be such a custom? What purpose does it serve?

 

[AmazonQueen]

I think its easier to say what isn't business casual than what is. I'm guessing its pretty close to smart casual we have here.

Things that would be out are jeans or any denim, slogan/band t-shirts, shorts, sandals, flip-flops. Trainers are ok now so long as they aren't excessively colourful.

As to why other peoples expectations, be they other staff or customers, which are not always rational.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Bank tellers sit/stand behind high counters and bullet proof glass. Their lower body coverings are hardly seen or relevant. Nice tops are appropriate since that is what the customers will see. If a bank's dress code permits jeans, there is no reason to disrespect a teller for following their employer guidelines. Employees are not responsible for company policies, so its would be best to take it up with the the bank's management. Good luck with that.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Bank tellers sit/stand behind high counters and bullet proof glass. Their lower body coverings are hardly seen or relevant. Nice tops are appropriate since that is what the customers will see. If a bank's dress code permits jeans, there is no reason to disrespect a teller for following their employer guidelines. Employees are not responsible for company policies, so its would be best to take it up with the the bank's management. Good luck with that.

Except when they're not behind a high counter and bullet proof glass. The only reason there are any barriers on the counter now is due to covid. The tellers sometimes move around from place to place that isn't behind anything. There are a couple of low counters for the benefit of seniors/disabled or people who have banking that will take more than the couple of minutes necessary to stand.

"Disrespect" in this instance went along these lines: I saw the teller come out from behind the counter, talk to a colleague, come out from behind the counter, cross over to a different set of counters, do whatever, then return to her starting place.

There were a couple of other tellers/employees moving around. Only one of them was dressed like she was at the mall (jeans and something that wasn't any kind of top I've seen in a business) and I remember wondering, "Jeans? And what... is THAT? It's not July...???"

I might get the same reaction if I turned up there in my pajamas. Everything covered that has to be, but for the wrong occasion. And yeah, I've heard of people who go shopping in their pajamas. That's not normal here, either.

 

[Gorbles]

I'm a bit lost, just catching up on the thread a bit. How are jeans in any way comparable to pyjamas?

 

[Lexicus]

Except when they're not behind a high counter and bullet proof glass. The only reason there are any barriers on the counter now is due to covid. The tellers sometimes move around from place to place that isn't behind anything. There are a couple of low counters for the benefit of seniors/disabled or people who have banking that will take more than the couple of minutes necessary to stand.

"Disrespect" in this instance went along these lines: I saw the teller come out from behind the counter, talk to a colleague, come out from behind the counter, cross over to a different set of counters, do whatever, then return to her starting place.

There were a couple of other tellers/employees moving around. Only one of them was dressed like she was at the mall (jeans and something that wasn't any kind of top I've seen in a business) and I remember wondering, "Jeans? And what... is THAT? It's not July...???"

I might get the same reaction if I turned up there in my pajamas. Everything covered that has to be, but for the wrong occasion. And yeah, I've heard of people who go shopping in their pajamas. That's not normal here, either.

The fact that you can't answer a simple question about WHY jeans are inappropriate is telling...similarly, anyone judging you for showing up in pajamas can piss off, it's a free country.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm a bit lost, just catching up on the thread a bit. How are jeans in any way comparable to pyjamas?

O-kay... I'm evidently beset by a group effort to not be able to connect the dots, or else it's "let's all annoy Valka; it'll be fun" time.

There. are. places. where. jeans. are. inappropriate. There. are. places. where. pajamas. are. inappropriate. Therefore. you. should. not. wear. them. in. those. places.

The fact that you can't answer a simple question about WHY jeans are inappropriate is telling...similarly, anyone judging you for showing up in pajamas can piss off, it's a free country.

Look. Ajidica started the thread to ask for advice on what to wear. By your "logic", I should tell him to wear his SCA outfits. They won't physically impinge on his ability to do the job, right? They look well-made, from what I can tell from the photos, and are certainly colorful.

SCA garb isn't appropriate for modern offices. Neither is a lot of other types of clothing.

I've answered your question. You just don't agree with my answer, so you carry on claiming I haven't answered it.

At least I answered Ajidica and a couple of others agreed with my answers there. Go find another target, because I will not answer you anymore in this thread.

 

[PhroX]

But why are jeans innapropriate? Simply saying it over and over again doesn't either explain or justify your position.

I would have absolutely no probelm if someone turned up to the office I work at in SCA clothes. Why would it matter at all?

 

[Lexicus]

There. are. places. where. jeans. are. inappropriate. There. are. places. where. pajamas. are. inappropriate. Therefore. you. should. not. wear. them. in. those. places.

I've answered your question. You just don't agree with my answer, so you carry on claiming I haven't answered it.

It's no more an answer to the question than you asking someone what proof there is that God exists and them saying "I know he exists," and then you ask how they know and they say they just know. This is the exact same logic: jeans are inappropriate, because they're inappropriate. There's no actual reason given, it's just a revelation.

 

[Hygro]

Business casual is the worst of all worlds, for sure. You aren’t empowered looking sharp in a suit, and you aren’t comfortable looking cool in your casual wear.

Slacks
Belt
Tucked in button up long sleeve
Top button open (closed is hipster youth thing from 2010s)
Leather shoes

 

[Gorbles]

O-kay... I'm evidently beset by a group effort to not be able to connect the dots, or else it's "let's all annoy Valka; it'll be fun" time.

I'm a senior software developer who has both worn full (two piece) suits to work events, full casual, and "business casual" as my company understands it, which is a collared shirt, jacket, anything that aren't tracksuit bottoms (or pyjamas), any anything that aren't trainers.

In that last category, jeans are still appropriate. I have some nice, well-fitting jeans for this exact purpose.

I'm not shelling out £200 for a matching tailored suit (and it'd have to be tailored). There isn't an expectation for me to (to date). So I'm asking genuinely, because "pyjamas" doesn't seem comparable at all.

 

[Hygro]

I'm a senior software developer who has both worn full (two piece) suits to work events, full casual, and "business casual" as my company understands it, which is a collared shirt, jacket, anything that aren't tracksuit bottoms (or pyjamas), any anything that aren't trainers.

In that last category, jeans are still appropriate. I have some nice, well-fitting jeans for this exact purpose.

I'm not shelling out £200 for a matching tailored suit (and it'd have to be tailored). There isn't an expectation for me to (to date). So I'm asking genuinely, because "pyjamas" doesn't seem comparable at all.

Jeans and polos are extra casual for business casual, some firms it’s quite alright and others it is not. As a Bay Area engineer, I get my best results interviewing in a combination of jeans and new/nice neutral athleisure thin hoodies. It’s the best.

 

[Plains-Cow]

Black tuxedo with white athletic sneakers so they know you mean business!

 

[Hygro]

If I saw someone wearing that my concern of being caught in a gun battle would increase immensely.