What is creation science?

I will say that I'm appalled at how much pseudoscientific nonsense is being spouted here.

You mean the Cosmic Soccer Ball Theory? (CSBT?)

I could not imagine any other way to move a Planet Earth from the Asteroid Belt to its present orbit. Some soccer players can kick a ball with incredible precision.

How much damage the change in energy would do to the Earth, I have no idea.
 
I had a lot more to say, but my browser ate it.

Get the Lazarus plug-in. No need for Sufficiently Advanced Aliens when a simple plug-in can restore your post in seconds. :)
 
You mean the Cosmic Soccer Ball Theory? (CSBT?)

I could not imagine any other way to move a Planet Earth from the Asteroid Belt to its present orbit. Some soccer players can kick a ball with incredible precision.

How much damage the change in energy would do to the Earth, I have no idea.
I mean the von Daniken/Velikovsky-style stuff. Plus, I'm still annoyed by the Ask an Atlanteologist thread in OT, where the OP posted a bunch of videos that supposedly prove his case. I watched them, but he never stayed around to answer my questions. In those videos, Mars, Venus, Saturn, and Jupiter can't make up their minds where they want to be in the Solar System, and switch places almost on a whim to influence human events on Earth.
 
It's not even pseudo-science, that's a term which refers to non-hard sciences. It's not supposed to be a slander at all, merely a descriptor of sciences which are technically and theoretically very in-depth, but lack the novel predictive quality of the "true, hard sciences." Biology, for example, would meet the definition of pseudo-science, while physics and chemistry would not.

"Creation science" isn't anything remotely like science, it's an ideology which cherry-picks data to support its point and disregards the rest, including the concept of drawing conclusions based upon evidence. It's not a system of analysis, it's not a lens for understanding anything, it's a political clique which is manipulating history to suit its own fundamentalist ends. It's already decided what's what, now it just needs selective data to back that up.

You seem bigoted against biological research, but I'll support your second paragraph.
Categorically, creation science is trying to prove a hypothesis in the context of an ideology, which is where it fails. When any theory/hypothesis becomes so entrenched to be unchangeable by facts then you can't do further experimentation on it, by definition. For a science to be current, it has to allow further experimentation in some direction. So basically they are stuck with old science. Creation scientists would be more credible if they were actively designing new experiments, using current scientific methods, but instead they tend to just be nay-saying competing theories (e.g. stuck in literary criticism or stuck in superficial review of other peoples' experiments). That is not to say it is not a valid activity to criticize new scientific methods (e.g. for limitations, say in quantification).
 
See the article Cribb posted in AAR recently by Lakatos. Or this.Biology is incapable of making this kind of prediction, it can only analyze what has happened in the past. Biologists cannot accurately predict anything in the future. They can talk about probabilities and possible dynamics, but they cannot make a definitive statement upon which the validity of their theories can be hinged, which we can directly test and determine to be correct or not, unless it is some sort of reaction which has already been determined to be true in the past.

You are kind of ignorant if you think chemistry doesn't talk in terms of probabilities and dynamics also. And such actually are science. Biology science is definitely not a humanity although perhaps the term is abused by some of the humanities/social sciences.
 
It wouldn't take an Einstein to watch the sky and figure out the world is round and rotating, but it would take an uncommon insight. Aristotle and Ptolemy did not write Genesis. They did not write the Enuma Elish. They were largely ignorant about Sumerian astronomy.

There is a cylinder seal (VA 243) dating back over 4,000 years that shows our solar system, 11 objects surrounding a star. Those objects match up with the descriptions of the celestial gods in the Enuma Elish.

Since, as already shown, it was impossible for them to know, this sounds like a guess. And the Greeks were rather familiar with Sumerian advances in astronomy.

If an asteroid hit Europa, what would happen? Erupting lava under a very deep ocean. And once again, Genesis aint talking about how the dark, water covered world formed. Its talking about how that proto-world came to have "Earth" - dry land, continents and life.

This is just semantics: the early Earth would be some sort of (more or less) solid mass. The problem is how Earth got water. It certainly didn't start with it.

In Genesis the Earth is not this planet, its the dry land that appeared from under the water. The water was here first according to Genesis, that doesn't mean the water was here 4.5 bya.

No, it means that the water formed the heavenly expanse. Total nonsense, scientifically, but apparently a clear representation of the then view of the (early) universe by the authors.

Researchers believe some of the planets did move to new orbits

If large enough collisions occurred, then yes.

They knew about the outer planets, they described them in the Enuma Elish and depicted them on a cylinder seal (VA 243).

You confuse knowledge with lore - lore in this case being a random guess, not based on any observation. You seem to think this Enuma Elish is a scientific text; it is not. It may contain some science, but that is not the same thing. Even the Bible contains some science, but it is not a scientific treatise.

Draw a line thru Saturn's equatorial plane (rings) and you will see the line points to Pluto.

No, you will not. A line starts at one point; this point is not specified, so there's nothing to point at.

They cant date rocks?

Rocks, yes (approximately). Water, no - as far as I'm aware.

Ever hear of acid rain?

Acid rain erodes metals, not earth.
 
I asked for a citation that shows "That toxic (Co2) environment would have quickly eroded away land"

Your link only shows that the environment was toxic (which I would not have been questioning, I think everyone with an ounce of scientific knowledge knows that the early atmosphere was not a hospitable place), not that your claim on the effects of that is true. Try again.

Here is what I said:

Land may have appeared occasionally following an impact but the science tells us the world was spinning much faster with a closer moon causing immense tides. That toxic (Co2) environment would have quickly eroded away land and that would be true with just our amount of water, if this planet formed at the freeze line the ocean would have been much deeper.

http://metro.co.uk/2008/12/31/early-...-water-274995/

That was in the same post you quoted, but lemme get this right - you dont want citations for the evidence, just my opinion about what the evidence tells us? Instead of demanding citations just explain why my conclusion is wrong.

Eleven objects? So, which eleven would those be? Feel free to define them all.

The Mesopotamians already did that for us, they wrote about them in their creation epic the Enuma Elish. In it they describe the celestial "gods" before Marduk slays Tiamat to form Heaven and Earth. There was primordial Abzu (Sun), his vizier Mummu (Mercury) and Tiamat (proto-Earth). In their midst were born a pair of warrior gods, Lahmu and Lahamu - male and female. These are Mars and Venus.

Over time and beyond them another pair are born (Kishar and Anshar, Jupiter and Saturn) followed by one more pair, Anu and Nudimmud/Ea (Uranus and Neptune). As Marduk agrees to battle Tiamat, Anshar sends his emissary Gaga (Pluto?) to announce Marduk's supremacy. The text even says Marduk was crowned with the halo of 10 gods. The Moon was not yet part of the story, but it completes our system of 12 "gods". Cylinder Seal VA 243 is a depiction of our solar system and the gods appearing in the Enuma Elish.

@sanabas

I want to know more about this relationship between Pluto & Saturn. At it's simplest, the theory is that if you take Saturn's orbit as your reference point, then Saturn's axial tilt = Pluto's orbital inclination, yes? Because a quick back of the envelope calculation says it's not.

Pluto's orbital inclination is ~17, Saturn's tilt is ~27 - the angle between Saturn and Pluto (near perihelion) is ~27. Subtracting Saturn's distance from Pluto creates a 2:1 ratio and (for now) they share ascending nodes.

To get closer to the Sun, you have to reduce the speed of the planet. Then when the planet is at 1.0 AU you have to increase the speed to keep it in Earth's current orbit.

Here is a soccer (football) analogy: A player at 2.8 AU kicks the cosmic soccer ball to his teammate at 1.0 AU who kicks it. GOOOAAAALLLLL!!!!!

The 2nd player is the Sun, the Earth sped up by virtue of a closer orbit.

Are you referring to orbital inclination relative to the ecliptic?

No
 
The Mesopotamians already did that for us, they wrote about them in their creation epic the Enuma Elish. In it they describe the celestial "gods" before Marduk slays Tiamat to form Heaven and Earth. There was primordial Abzu (Sun), his vizier Mummu (Mercury) and Tiamat (proto-Earth). In their midst were born a pair of warrior gods, Lahmu and Lahamu - male and female. These are Mars and Venus.

Over time and beyond them another pair are born (Kishar and Anshar, Jupiter and Saturn) followed by one more pair, Anu and Nudimmud/Ea (Uranus and Neptune). As Marduk agrees to battle Tiamat, Anshar sends his emissary Gaga (Pluto?) to announce Marduk's supremacy. The text even says Marduk was crowned with the halo of 10 gods. The Moon was not yet part of the story, but it completes our system of 12 "gods". Cylinder Seal VA 243 is a depiction of our solar system and the gods appearing in the Enuma Elish.
Let's see...

Uranus discovered in 1781
Neptune discovered in 1846
Pluto discovered in 1930

So either these ancient Mesopotamians had a time machine, or they independently invented the telescope thousands of years before the Dutch did in the early 17th century (1608 is the year cited for its invention, while Galileo was the first person to use a telescope for astronomical purposes in 1609). Neither of these possibilities has any credibility, and the 'ancient gods/aliens' notions certainly do not.
 
The Moon was not yet part of the story, but it completes our system of 12 "gods".
Really? Why? Presumably, none of the other planets' moons are gods, yet for some reason our own (unmentioned) moon is clearly one of the gods. Again, why?

Cylinder Seal VA 243 is a depiction of our solar system and the gods appearing in the Enuma Elish.
You keep saying this, but is there even a single scrap of evidence that unambiguously suggests this, other than it vaguely resembles what you want it to?
 
Pluto's orbital inclination is ~17, Saturn's tilt is ~27 - the angle between Saturn and Pluto (near perihelion) is ~27.

So the rings might point to Pluto at one particular bit of the orbit?

Except again with the back of the envelope, it says near perihelion, Pluto is ~30 AU from the Sun, ~8 AU above the orbital plane of all the other planets. Saturn's orbit is roughly 9-10 AU from the sun, so depending on position, to get from Saturn to Pluto is anywhere from 20-40 AU across the ecliptic, 8 AU up. tan ^-1 (8/20) = 21.8 degrees. tan^-1 (8/40) = 11.3 degrees. So the 'angle between Saturn & Pluto' is never 27 degrees, it peaks between 11 & 22 degrees each time Pluto reaches perihelion. Why use the earth's ecliptic as the reference point, anyway, if all you want to work out the elevation of Pluto as seen from Saturn? Why wouldn't you use the Sun's equatorial plane? Or even better, Saturn's ecliptic, since that's what you'd use to measure Saturn's axial tilt. You end up with slightly different numbers, though none of them are 27.

Subtracting Saturn's distance from Pluto creates a 2:1 ratio

No it doesn't. At one particular time, the distance from Saturn to the Sun might be half that of the distance from Saturn to Pluto. But at another particular time, it'll be 1:3, and at another it'll be 1:4 and 1:5 and will even get close to 1:6. Why is the 1:2 bit meaningful, and none of the others are?


and (for now) they share ascending nodes.

No they don't. If you mean the longitude of their ascending nodes is the same, then they're still not. Mercury's & Mars' are closer together, so does that make them related too? If you subtract Mercury's aphelion distance from Mars' perihelion, you get a distance in a ratio of 1.96:1 with Mercury's aphelion. Doing the same with Pluto & Saturn only gives 1.95:1. Plus Mercury's equator points at Mars, far closer & more consistently than Saturn's points at Pluto. I can only conclude that Mars was ejected from Mercury at some point. And that the Romans knew it, and thousands of years ago were writing slashfic depicting Mars & Mercury being joined and then coming apart.

There's also the issue that picking a different reference plane, e.g. the sun's equatorial plane instead of the earth's ecliptic, or Jupiter's ecliptic, means those longitudes will change. With one particular reference plane, they're close together, but not the same. Choose a different reference plane, and they're not as close together anymore. So how is there significance to the two numbers being not quite the same with our current preferred reference plane?

What you're doing is like taking a street directory, and saying that my house is in grid square c7 on its page, and your house is in grid c7 on its page, and concluding there's some special link between our houses because hey, they're both in c7. Or if I stand at a certain point, the elevation of one skyscraper is the same as the elevation of the local mountain, therefore there's a connection between the two. This number's about the same as that number, therefore connected. And done by aliens. Even though that's obviously ridiculous. And even though your 'same' numbers aren't actually the same at all.

Cylinder Seal VA 243 is a depiction of our solar system and the gods appearing in the Enuma Elish.

No, it isn't. Takes about 30 seconds with google to see that the idea that it is is basically down to one bloke making crap up.

But while you're making crap up, why not include the number of the seal as more evidence? 243 = 7^3 - 10^2. If the sun is god #1, mercury god #2, etc, and then the moon & the alien's home planet are gods #11 & 12, then 7 = Saturn and 10 = Pluto, so the very number of the cylinder itself is clearly another hint that they arrived at the picture on the cylinder (i.e. an accurate description of the solar system) by starting with Saturn and then removing Pluto from it.
 
Why couldn't water cover the lava Earth?
Lava is hot, make water go boil. Also at that time, no atmosphere, water goes boil.

We've had water for up to 4.4 billion years, didn't it cover lava? The water we got now covers lava. A "lava" world forming at the freeze line would have plenty of water, it would have formed surrounded by and probably in water.
It covers the bits that aren't lava. When the Earth was formed it was all lava. Your lava world in the freeze line is completely madey uppy.

clip_image017.jpg


Not much beach side property there.
So how did we get oceans before the meteorites had the time to arrive? Scientists dont know, I dont know, and you dont know, so spare me the attitude.
You don't know, but you still claim there were oceans before the meteorites had time to arive.
 
I found this interesting quotation on the Wikipedia page about Sitchin:

Wikipedia said:
He uses the Epic of Creation Enuma Elish as the foundation for his cosmogony, identifying the young god Marduk, who overthrows the older regime of gods and creates the Earth, as the unknown "Twelfth Planet". In order to do this he interprets the Babylonian theogony as a factual account of the birth of the other "eleven" planets. The Babylonian names for the planets are established beyond a shadow of a doubt—Ishtar was the deity of Venus, Nergal of Mars, and Marduk of Jupiter—and confirmed by hundreds of astronomical/astrological tables and treatises on clay tablets and papyri from the Hellenistic period. Sitchin merrily ignores all this and assigns unwarranted planetary identities to the gods mentioned in the theogony. For example, Apsu, attested as god of the primeval waters, becomes, of all things, the Sun! Ea, as it suits Sitchin, is sometimes planet Neptune and sometimes a spaceman. And the identity of Ishtar as the planet Venus, a central feature of Mesopotamian religion, is nowhere mentioned in the book—instead Sitchin arbitrarily assigns to Venus another deity from Enuma Elish, and reserves Ishtar for a role as a female astronaut.

That would rather leave us to believe that Berzerker's recounting of mythology is less Babylonian and more balderdash.
 
lemme get this right - you dont want citations for the evidence, just my opinion about what the evidence tells us?
No. For the third time, I want a citation that backs up your assertion that a Carbon Dioxide atmosphere would have eroded all the land.

Instead of demanding citations just explain why my conclusion is wrong.
Because it ...is. Carbon Dioxide does not possess the property of being inimical to the formation of land. :confused:
 
The 2nd player is the Sun, the Earth sped up by virtue of a closer orbit.

Maybe it would be easier to link a Wikipedia article on orbital mechanics to explain my point than to explain it mathematically and physically. The article even includes a picture.

The picture shows how to get from a low circular orbit to a high circular orbit. You make one burn to get from the low circular orbit to a transfer orbit. See how the transfer orbit is elliptical. When you reach the second orbit, you make another burn to get into the new circular orbit. It works the same way in reverse.

So to get the Earth from a hypothetical orbit at 2.8AU, you need one burn or kick or collision or whatever to force it into an elliptical transfer orbit that will get it to the new orbit at 1.0AU. At 1.0AU, you need another kick to get it into its present orbit.
 
I have looked for a scientific article that draws the same conclusions from the evidence: Earth may have been formed in the asteroid belt. Just examining the possibility mind you. Closest thing I can find is speculation that the asteroid belt could have been a planet (message board setiathome.berkeley.edu) but that doesn't work.

So my google-fu is clearly off.

On the other hand, a whole lot of articles that all state for instance:
http://www.extremescience.com/earth.htm
In the very beginning of earth's history, this planet was a giant, red hot, roiling, boiling sea of molten rock - a magma ocean. The heat had been generated by the repeated high speed collisions of much smaller bodies of space rocks that continually clumped together as they collided to form this planet. As the collisions tapered off the earth began to cool, forming a thin crust on its surface. As the cooling continued, water vapor began to escape and condense in the earth's early atmosphere. Clouds formed and storms raged, raining more and more water down on the primitive earth, cooling the surface further until it was flooded with water, forming the seas.

So if we drop the wild unsupported theory for an Earth forming in the asteroid belt (happy to be proven wrong by an scientific article examining this possibility and reaching the conclusion that such is plausible) and go from there, we arrive at the claim: Genesis explains the second time Earth (as per Bezerker's definition, namely dry land) was formed. I think the vulcanoes that formed small island all throughout the watery period has been dismissed as Genesis being close enough, right?
 
What you're doing is like taking a street directory, and saying that my house is in grid square c7 on its page, and your house is in grid c7 on its page, and concluding there's some special link between our houses because hey, they're both in c7.
No, he's doing Creation Science.
 
The flat earth society believes that all cities named Springfield are linked by together in space-time. Perhaps the same is true of city grids c7.
 
Hmm, this is interesting.

It may be that our water formed in the Interstellar Medium:
The team constructed a detailed model of the chemical processes creating water in a protoplanetary disk. Much of the cosmic rays are fended off by the young star’s magnetic field and particles streaming out from the star, but there are other sources of radiation: x-rays from the star and short-lived radionuclides in the disk. As the researchers report online today in Science, those sources of radiation just don’t produce heavy water fast enough. “We found that heavy water didn’t form in any abundance over a million years,” Cleeves says.

In fact, the team estimates that as much as 50% of the water now on Earth may have existed since before the birth of the sun 4.5 billion years ago.

http://news.sciencemag.org/earth/2014/09/half-earths-water-formed-sun-was-born?rss=1

I wonder how the Enuma Elish can be reinterpreted to align with this.... Creation Science at work!
 
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