What is the ideal taxation scheme?

And look, my justification for taxes is this: the accumulation of power, wealth, and influence has inherent, underlying externalities. You hurt other people by having more than them. You dilute their political influence. You decrease their social mobility for the most part. You keep most of what you earn for what you have contributed. But the very existence of your wealth negatively affects others. Therefore, the government taxes to compensate just as the government should fine a chemical plant for dumping dangerous substances into a river. Because it hurts other people.

I don't understand the idea that one person's wealth harms another. Life is not a zero sum game and Bill Gates and Warren Buffet being super rich does harm me in the slightest. Social mobility does not mean anything by itself. If everyone had the exact same amount of wealth, you could rise to the top of the social ladder by digging around for loose change under your couch but that doesn't mean you are better off. What I would be more concerned with is the ability to improve your standard of living.

I can agree with the argument that the rich benefit proportionally from having a stable government and therefore should pay more taxes. I can agree that the rich of disproportionate power to manipulate government but that is a problem with government not with wealth. If you can neuter government you can neuter its power to manipulate the lives of its citizens.
 
I don't understand the idea that one person's wealth harms another. Life is not a zero sum game and Bill Gates and Warren Buffet being super rich does harm me in the slightest. Social mobility does not mean anything by itself. If everyone had the exact same amount of wealth, you could rise to the top of the social ladder by digging around for loose change under your couch but that doesn't mean you are better off. What I would be more concerned with is the ability to improve your standard of living.

I can agree with the argument that the rich benefit proportionally from having a stable government and therefore should pay more taxes. I can agree that the rich of disproportionate power to manipulate government but that is a problem with government not with wealth. If you can neuter government you can neuter its power to manipulate the lives of its citizens.

Actually, the rich have power beyond the political sphere. Socioeconomically, on many levels, they possess power beyond yours. You're right; it's not zero-sum. However, it's like inflation. The more they amass, the more your own influence and opportunities are taxed. On the simplest level, it's as basic as their children getting the leg up when applying to college. Beyond that, they have the ability to advertise and influence public sentiment, they can afford to broadcast their voices and drown yours out, and so on and so forth. This list consists merely of a couple of examples. Imagine yourself immensely rich, then imagine what you could to keep yourself wealthy and influential and others weak and subservient. What that inordinate power can be turned towards is as manifold as the human creativity for controlling his fellows is strong.
 
On the simplest level, it's as basic as their children getting the leg up when applying to college.

I don't understand. How do rich children get a leg up when applying for college?


Beyond that, they have the ability to advertise and influence public sentiment, they can afford to broadcast their voices and drown yours out, and so on and so forth.

I don't agree with the premise that the rich people's ability to advertise and influence public opinion takes away anyone else's. And if anything there is a bias against the rich. Mainstream media outlets cater to their customers of whom "the rich" are a minority and we have the internet in which anyone can publish any opinion. At any rate you have right to free speech, not that others must listen or agree with you.
 
Just what does the FEDERAL government need to do? If it abolished medicare, social security, and all that other crap it spends money on that it shouldn't, it should be just fine. Hell, it might even start being able to pay down the debt a bit.

Would it even be able to pay for the military & military-associated costs with a 10% flat rate?

I doubt it.

Either way, you are just going to have to accept that the government needs to spend money on things you do not approve of - your 10% flat tax rate is unrealistic, to say the least.
 
10% of aggregate personal income less government transfers (i.e., excluding such things as social security income) is in the ballpark of $1 trillion, which would fund the military (~$600b) and a few other things.
 
Would it even be able to pay for the military & military-associated costs with a 10% flat rate?

I doubt it.

Either way, you are just going to have to accept that the government needs to spend money on things you do not approve of - your 10% flat tax rate is unrealistic, to say the least.

Well I guess we would just be forced to drastically reduce military spending then. :mischief:
 
I don't understand. How do rich children get a leg up when applying for college?




I don't agree with the premise that the rich people's ability to advertise and influence public opinion takes away anyone else's. And if anything there is a bias against the rich. Mainstream media outlets cater to their customers of whom "the rich" are a minority and we have the internet in which anyone can publish any opinion. At any rate you have right to free speech, not that others must listen or agree with you.

Rich kids not only likely have legacy or other connections due to their parents' wealth and standing, but they also have access to better tutors, SAT courses etc. It's been shown that SAT scores correlate with parental income. Like I've stated before, the advantages are only limited by the imagination of the parent, not their scope of wealth. You name it, their kids go to school safe and secure, with the best supplies, with kids of similar socioeconomic backgrounds who serve as connections in the future. See, most kids from the projects don't have parents who know deans and regents. Kids in richer areas have parents who are wealthy and can pull strings. (e.g. call in a favor with another friend, get his kid an internship to spice up his college applications) And since these kids generally do not grow up to be poor (as they inherit not only their parents' wealth but also all the capital (e.g. training, education) that their parents invest in), they'll form another generation of wealth, of privilege, of pulling strings for advantages. When a kid from a wealthy area can hire tutors and gain a leg up in the application process, a valuable slot is lost. Admissions to schools are zero-sum. This also has a long-term cost to everyone, because it corrupts the entire system which is supposed to be meritocratic. A spot lost to a smarter but poorer applicant denies such labor from the means of production. You really want to tell me George Bush got into Yale because of his academics, not because of his father's connections and wealth? Guess what, he took a seat from a poorer kid who could, for all we know, become a world-renowned economist or an honest, capable politician. Anyway you cut it, wealth corrupts meritocracy. And, as even the staunchest capitalist will agree, meritocracy is the best system for progressing society, of developing technologies, of bettering the individual and society. Now, taxing the rich in a higher bracket, trying to give even poor kids a stable school environment, providing welfare so that they don't go to school hungry, and a multitude of other objectives helps to even the odds a bit. The playing field is not as skewed as if we had the laissez-faire, barebones government many seem to argue for. Hell, I agree that implementations needs a lot of work. But please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
10% of aggregate personal income less government transfers (i.e., excluding such things as social security income) is in the ballpark of $1 trillion, which would fund the military (~$600b) and a few other things.

Last year you guys spent more on the military than that, I believe. (I don't think you're counting money spent on Iraq and Afghanistan specifically)

Even if you didn't, how silly is it for your government to spend 60% of its alloted money on the military and 40% on the rest?
 
He meant assuming taxes were 10%, that's how much tax revenue there would have been. Actual revenue was far higher. Actual spending, even higher than that. How much we actually spent for all the military related spending, that's lost in accounting gimmicks.
 
Last year you guys spent more on the military than that, I believe. (I don't think you're counting money spent on Iraq and Afghanistan specifically)

Even if you didn't, how silly is it for your government to spend 60% of its alloted money on the military and 40% on the rest?

On the first point, it is true that I was only considering those expenditures included in the 'national defense' portion of government spending, which excludes money spent on Iraq/Afghanistan and also probably undercounts the amount spent on maintaining bases abroad.

On the second point, I agree with you; I'm just showing that such a system would be possible, not that it would be optimal. edit: Cutlass got there first. Hi Cutlass!
 
I'd rather have them tax than be in the retail business. Except possibly as a short term emergency measure.
 
An idea taxation scheme is one in which the government only uses it to raise revenue, as not as a force of social change, i.e., lower taxes if you own a home or are married.

A lot of people believe the opposite. That taxes should encourage a change in behavior.
 
User fees are by definition impossible for a public good. By definition, a user fee is a fee in which if a person does not pay it, he would be excluded from the good.

so why are you telling me user fees are free riding?

Also by definition, a public good is non-excludable. So it is an improper method of payment for public goods such as national defense, lighthosues, clean air, road construction and maintenance, et cetera.

As for being a liberal, last time I checked, I'm not the one calling for taxes to be abolished for public goods.

We pay gas taxes to build and maintain roads (user fees), and why would liberals want to abolish taxes for public goods? :confused:
 
The rich should take the burden of the taxes. Punish them for being successful. Make em pay and support the people that don't work :smug:.

[Insert obligatory sarcastic remark and j/k smilie here in the event people take this post seriously]
 
so why are you telling me user fees are free riding?

If it's a public good, than a user fee will not correctly charge people who receive the good what they should pay. You misunderstood him.

We pay gas taxes to build and maintain roads (user fees), and why would liberals want to abolish taxes for public goods? :confused:

Name a liberal who wants to do that? Liberals understand TANSTAAFL. User fees are the wrong way to pay for a public good. They still have to be paid for.
 
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