What is the proper etiquette to show respect for the flag?

[aronnax]

Your ability to influence the course of your country's history is almost nonexistant, Eco.

Now now, he is one of the people who contribute to the ever expanding beauty of what is the republican party and values...

 

[jono256]

I'm part of what made and makes my country great. I've contributed to this country in many ways, as have my parents and theirs. I (we) have every right to be proud of our accomplishments as a nation. Just like a member of any team has the right to be proud of their team. Perhaps if you live in a society that the government is completely divorced from the people (like, say, Iran), then you are not so happy or proud... but over here in democracy land, we are directly responsible for the courses and policies of our nation and if we are to take responsibility for the faults then we should also take responsibility for the accomplishments. Each, in their own ways, make our country what it is.

I live in democracy land too (other side of the atlantic).
I also believe you are free to salute your flag, feel patriotic etc... I just find it silly even though i will join in a bit of nationalism myself for football or rugby. I'm bi-national and will support whoever is winning, just because winning is nice.
I don't believe my countries of origin are better than yours, for me nationalism comes from deeply rooted feelings and can be manipulated to do evil, just like racism comes from xenophobia which is a natural yet dangerous emotion.

 

[TheJ0K3R]

I'm part of what made and makes my country great. I've contributed to this country in many ways, as have my parents and theirs. I (we) have every right to be proud of our accomplishments as a nation. Just like a member of any team has the right to be proud of their team. Perhaps if you live in a society that the government is completely divorced from the people (like, say, Iran), then you are not so happy or proud... but over here in democracy land, we are directly responsible for the courses and policies of our nation and if we are to take responsibility for the faults then we should also take responsibility for the accomplishments. Each, in their own ways, make our country what it is.

Can you tell me which responsibilities did you take ?
Is there any sign on the world that tells us American people start to take responsibility for what they've done wrong?
How can you decide your country's some decisions are wrong,some are right?

 

[Ecofarm]

Can you tell me which responsibilities did you take ?
Is there any sign on the world that tells us American people start to take responsibility for what they've done wrong?
How can you decide your country's some decisions are wrong,some are right?

Responses in order:

I vote, I pay taxes, I'm politically active, I don't commit felonies and I served in the military... just to name a few of my contributions.

Sure. Do you feel there is no evidence whatsoever for American people taking responsibility? I'm not sure where you get the idea that the US public is any less responsible for the actions of their government than other countries. Perhaps you have an example in mind?

It is up to each person to decide which decisions are right and which are wrong. Further, it is up to each person to do something about it if they feel strongly. Call our congress-person, vote, start or join a PAC/lobbyist organization, donate to an organization representing your opinion/cause or even run for office; there are a million ways to make your voice heard.

One does not need to be a Kennedy to make a difference. Obama ain't no fortunate son.

 

[TheJ0K3R]

.
Sure. Do you feel there is no evidence whatsoever for American people taking responsibility? I'm not sure where you get the idea that the US public is any less responsible for the actions of their government than other countries. Perhaps you have an example in mind?

Don't American people have sanction against their governments?Because if American people don't approve their government's decisions,I think US would keep that in mind,and stop invading countries from time to time.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So, if I get this right:


Link to video.

Some people playing this are standing behind their pc, saluting or placing their hand on their hearts.

 

[Ecofarm]

Don't American people have sanction against their governments?Because if American people don't approve their government's decisions,I think US would keep that in mind,and stop invading countries from time to time.

Well, people can vote for politicians that represent their point of view. Some want to try Bush for war crimes and some approve of his actions. Each has their voice and chance to get majority support for their ideas. There are countless organizations that oppose the war, represent pacifism or seek prosecution of government officials. In the US, one is free to join them and push their agenda... without getting disappeared.

Personally, I support the invasions but we don't need to go there now.

 

[Camikaze]

I'm part of what made and makes my country great. I've contributed to this country in many ways, as have my parents and theirs. I (we) have every right to be proud of our accomplishments as a nation. Just like a member of any team has the right to be proud of their team. Perhaps if you live in a society that the government is completely divorced from the people (like, say, Iran), then you are not so happy or proud... but over here in democracy land, we are directly responsible for the courses and policies of our nation and if we are to take responsibility for the faults then we should also take responsibility for the accomplishments. Each, in their own ways, make our country what it is.

Don't you think that it would make more sense to be proud of the people within America and the achievements that they collectively make, rather than be proud of the entity commonly affiliated with them? The entity itself doesn't do squat. It's the people in it who achieve things. For clarification, the entity I'm referring to is not the government but the construct which it represents, in your case the United States of America. The government that represents you (comprised of individuals also commonly affiliated with the aforementioned entity) can also achieve things, and you can also be proud of that, but that doesn't mean you should be proud of the arbitrary entity that is used to group this bunch of people. Be proud of the people. Who are not the flag. Saluting/praising/worshipping the flag shows a certain disdain for the achievements of individuals, indicating you are more thankful to something inanimate than to very real people who actually have achieved something.

 

[Ecofarm]

Don't you think that it would make more sense to be proud of the people within America and the achievements that they collectively make

One of those achievements is this country and its laws.

Saluting/praising/worshipping the flag shows a certain disdain for the achievements of individuals, indicating you are more thankful to something inanimate than to very real people who actually have achieved something.

A flag is not just cloth... it's a symbol. Maybe you don't believe in symbols, but that's another argument. A democratic government is not just an entity... it is of, by and for the people. Your argument is along the lines of: You can be proud of John Elway but you cannot be proud of the Broncos... Does that make any sense? Also note, my government and my country's history are not inanimate objects.

And the flag represents alot more than the government. It represents our system, our laws and our values. To completely disassociate a symbol from its meaning and declare it merely an inanimate object with no relevance is absurd. It's like saying, "why do christians pay reverence to a lower-case 't'"!? Surely a lower-case 'y' or 'z' is just as good!

Have you never heard of 'sentimental value'? Let's say you have a letter saved from someone important to you and I drop drawers and land a stinker right on that bad boy... When I say "hey! it's just a piece of paper... an inanimate object!", do you let me off the hook?

With all this "it's just an inanimate object" crap flying around here, I wonder... how does anyone survive to the age of, like, 4 without understanding the concept of a symbol.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

I agree that a nationalist should respect their flag regardless of whatever the government of the day is doing. Since I'm the polar opposite of a nationalist I have contempt for all flags, not because I have any particular hatred of the individual countries, but because I consider the existense of flags, and the nations they represent, to be a poisonous blight on humanity. I don't wish my country ill, I'd just prefer that it (and all others) didn't exist.

 

[Camikaze]

One of those achievements is this country and its laws.

A flag is not just cloth... it's a symbol. Maybe you don't believe in symbols, but that's another argument. A democratic government is not just an entity... it is of, by and for the people. Your argument is along the lines of: You can be proud of John Elway but you cannot be proud of the Broncos... Does that make any sense? Also note, my government and my country's history are not inanimate objects.

And the flag represents alot more than the government. It represents our system, our laws and our values. To completely disassociate a symbol from its meaning and declare it merely an inanimate object with no relevance is absurd. It's like saying, "why do christians pay reverence to a lower-case 't'"!? Surely a lower-case 'y' or 'z' is just as good!

As I said, the flag does not represent the government, which represents the people. The flag represents the arbitrary construct and entity that the government and the people are part of. If you want to celebrate the government, or the institutions, or the people, do that. Throw them a parade, write them a letter, get a tattoo proclaiming your gratefulness. But don't pay homage to a piece of material that represents something different and inanimate in itself.

And your argument as to Christians revering the cross is completely lost on me. I think it is reasonably ridiculous to worship it instead of what it is said to represent.

With all this "it's just an inanimate object" crap flying around here, I wonder... how does anyone survive to the age of, like, 4 without understanding the concept of a symbol.

I recognise that it is a symbol. But, firstly, I think symbolism is a load of codswallop designed to remove the need to think about things, and secondly, I disagree with you as to what it is a symbol of.

 

[Ecofarm]

I'm just gonna try this one more time...

A "symbol" is an object that represents something. When one pays homage to a symbol, they are not paying homage to a piece of paper or cloth. A person is not saying "oh, thank you, great piece of cloth who hath given me so much". Because, well, that would be stupid.


I don't know who told you that we are actually paying homage to the cloth itself, as if it were some kind of deity incarnate... but that is certainly not what you've observed in regards to paying respect to the flag.

 

[aronnax]

One of those achievements is this country and its laws.

A flag is not just cloth... it's a symbol. Maybe you don't believe in symbols, but that's another argument. A democratic government is not just an entity... it is of, by and for the people. Your argument is along the lines of: You can be proud of John Elway but you cannot be proud of the Broncos... Does that make any sense? Also note, my government and my country's history are not inanimate objects.

Your right. Your Country's History is not an object.

And the flag represents alot more than the government. It represents our system, our laws and our values. To completely disassociate a symbol from its meaning and declare it merely an inanimate object with no relevance is absurd. It's like saying, "why do christians pay reverence to a lower-case 't'"!? Surely a lower-case 'y' or 'z' is just as good!

So... We should raise an object to a status higher than a human being because it represent something big, important and shiny? Right.

Have you never heard of 'sentimental value'? Let's say you have a letter saved from someone important to you and I drop drawers and land a stinker right on that bad boy... When I say "hey! it's just a piece of paper... an inanimate object!", do you let me off the hook?

Of course I will get mad. But you throwing away my personal things is different from me refusing to stand your flag.
And if you are talking about sentimental value, okay then, I wont burn your flag which you used as a blankie when you were three. But is it okay that I buy my own American flag and burn it? Cause you know. Its mine.

 

[aronnax]

Link to video.

Found it

 

[Ecofarm]

I agree that a nationalist should respect their flag regardless of whatever the government of the day is doing. Since I'm the polar opposite of a nationalist I have contempt for all flags, not because I have any particular hatred of the individual countries, but because I consider the existense of flags, and the nations they represent, to be a poisonous blight on humanity. I don't wish my country ill, I'd just prefer that it (and all others) didn't exist.

Patriotism can exist without nationalism.

And if you are talking about sentimental value, okay then, I wont burn your flag which you used as a blankie when you were three. But is it okay that I buy my own American flag and burn it? Cause you know. Its mine.

Yes, you may do with your property as you wish.

But you throwing away my personal things is different from me refusing to stand your flag.

That's not the point. The point is this supposed belief that it is a "worthless inanimate object that never actually did anything for anyone so who cares".

 

[Camikaze]

I'm just gonna try this one more time...

A "symbol" is an object that represents something. When one pays homage to a symbol, they are not paying homage to a piece of paper or cloth. A person is not saying "oh, thank you, great piece of cloth who hath given me so much". Because, well, that would be stupid.


I don't know who told you that we are actually paying homage to the cloth itself, as if it were some kind of deity incarnate... but that is certainly not what you've observed in regards to paying respect to the flag.

Firstly, I think you missed my edit. Secondly, I'm specifically trying to argue this point. People are intending to praise people through their worship of a flag. However, these intentions are misplaced. The flag does not represent the people. I'm not represented by no Union Jack and Southern Cross decided upon by some random monarchists 100 years ago, for example. Lumping everyone together under one symbol, that doesn't actually represent them as individuals, reeks of ignorance of the role of the individual in achievements, rather than the role of the 300 000 000 Americans in a particular achievement. Surely if the flag represents the people, then you should spit on it every time you get close enough to; if is the banner of murderers and paedophiles. Yeah, that's ridiculous, but just as ridiculous as arbitrarily grouping any other portion of society under one single banner.

 

[TheJ0K3R]

How can you be so disrespectful to the flags?I would show some respect even it was a flag of my country's worst enemy.

 

[RedRalph]

Ecofarm, would yopu consider it disrespectful to have sex with a foreign girl using a starts and stripes-slathered condom?

 

[aronnax]

Yes, you may do with your property as you wish.

Awesome.
You can find anything on youtube to make your point more vivid.

Spoiler :

Link to video.

That's not the point. The point is this supposed belief that it is a "worthless inanimate object that never actually did anything for anyone so who cares".

You can tie any flag or symbol with the political values or morals of anything. Its still not more important than what it is. A piece of cloth.

Now if its a 300 year old piece of cloth than its something else. And even than, I do not treat it with the respect of a human.

 

[Ecofarm]

You can tie any flag or symbol with the political values or morals of anything. Its still not more important than what it is. A piece of cloth.

It's very strange to not believe in the existence of symbols. How do you drive a car? You just ignore those unimportant flat pieces of metal with paint on the sides of the road?

Ecofarm, would yopu consider it disrespectful to have sex with a foreign girl using a starts and stripes-slathered condom?

No, but it's probably imperialist.