What is your FAVORITE heroe/Leader/warrior in history?

[Immortal]

the guy who invented the Sikh religion

Nanak?

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally written by ANGELA DUTRA DE MENEZES

Afonso Henriques expels the Moors from Lisbon and a number of other Portuguese cities

- with a little [actually, big] help from his friends - the 2nd Crusade !

Originally posted by raen

Very few people know, but it's thanks to the political shrewdness of Afonso Henriques that Portugal is the first European country to establish itself as an independent state.

Is this what Portuguese-speaking people are taught?

 

[Pangur Bán]

ON TOPIC:

Heraclius

The guy who Geoffrey Regan calls "the first Crusader"

Well, how can you beat the excitement of this man's career. He came to the throne in 610 with the Roman Empire in a critical almost hopeless position. The Avars (who probably introduced the stirrup to the West) and Slavs were assailing the Danube frontier and had broken through into Macedonia, Thrace and the Peloponnese. In the east, that war-monger Khusrau II was on the attack. He took Damascus in 613, Jerusalem in 614 (destroying the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and capturing the Holy Cross) and Egypt in 619. The empire was on the verge of destruction, more so than it had ever been or ever would be again until at least Manzikert. In August of 626 while Heraclius and his army were in distant Lazica, a Persian army attacked Constantinople from the east while an army of Avars, Slavs, and Bulgars attacked from the west and from the sea. But the brave Romans managed to fight them off. The next year, in an amazing act of daring, Heraclius grouped his forces and invaded Persia, winning at Nineveh and threatening the vastly overstretched Persians with the destruction of their capital. The Persians surrendered all their gains, and in 630 Heraclius delivered the True Cross back to Jerusalem.

But if all this weren't enough, within a couple of years, that "armed prophet" history known to history as Muhammed died leaving a strong war-ready Arabian state as his legacy, armed with nomad tactical superiority and the new faith that he left them. In 634 the Arab armies invaded Syria and defeated Theodore, the emperor's brother, in a string of battles. Heraclius raised a large army that attacked the Arabs near the Yarmuk, a tributary of the Jordan, in the fall of 636. After a successful beginning, the larger Byzantine army was defeated allowing the conquest of Syria. The Byzantine defeat also led to the Arabs quickly taking Mesopotamia, Armenia and eventually Egypt. However, Heraclius's policy of defence in depth saved the Empire, in contrast to the Persians, who were destroyed.

 

[raen]

Originally posted by calgacus


- with a little [actually, big] help from his friends - the 2nd Crusade !

Yes, and whats the problem? He was smart enough to get their help. Dont try to destroy this too with your lack of knowledge.

Originally posted by calgacus




Is this what Portuguese-speaking people are taught?

Please Justify your affirmation.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by raen


Yes, and whats the problem? He was smart enough to get their help. Dont try to destroy this too with your lack of knowledge.

My lack of knowledge

Originally posted by raen

Please Justify your affirmation.

It's simply not true, but I find it very interesting that some Portuguese-speaking people think it is.

 

[raen]

Originally posted by calgacus


My lack of knowledge

ahh sorry, must be lack of .... does not woth to say....

Originally posted by calgacus


It's simply not true, but I find it very interesting that Portuguese-speaking people think it is.

Whats true then, That is what I asked....

 

[MCdread]

It is said in the sense that it has the oldest stable borders in Europe (the borders haven't changed since the XIII century), but I guess we all like simplicity. But you are right calgacus.

 

[MCdread]

Anyway, I'm sorry raen, but that article is filled with a bit of nationalistic crap that's simply not true. In particular the part you quoted about his knighthood is something that has no evidence and was made up a few centuries later, but was perpetrated by the historians of Salazar's regime who idolised Afonso Henriques.

The man was still a force of nature, and worthy of admiration, but there is no need to make him a demigod.

 

[raen]

Originally posted by MCdread
Anyway, I'm sorry raen, but that article is filled with a bit of nationalistic crap that's simply not true. In particular the part you quoted about his knighthood is something that has no evidence and was made up a few centuries later, but was perpetrated by the historians of Salazar's regime who idolised Afonso Henriques.

The man was still a force of nature, and worthy of admiration, but there is no need to make him a demigod.

Yes maybe nationalistic, but my problem is not that, my problem is calgacus, go read civ3 conquests section and you will be clarified.

 

[MCdread]

Well, you wouldn't be the first person having problems with calgacus... What's the problem with Conquests' section?

On topic though, I've finished reading the entire article and my advice to you is definitely to find other sources about Afonso Henriques, cause this one is very inacurate and based on several mistifications. I conquer, however, that removed all of those, he was still a great king and a great leader, and in our history is hard to find equals in terms of leaders/warriors. I can only think of a few names: Nuno Alvares Pereira, João II, Afonso de Albuquerque, marquis of Pombal.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by MCdread
Well, you wouldn't be the first person having problems with calgacus... What's the problem with Conquests' section?

I said that I was going to combine Spain and Portugal for my own personal civ game. Even though it was a personal thing, there are three Portuguese guys who won't leave me alone on the matter

 

[raen]

Originally posted by calgacus


I said that I was going to combine Spain and Portugal for my own personal civ game. Even though it was a personal thing, there are three Portuguese guys who won't leave me alone on the matter

Wrong!!! you are hidding things!!!

@MCdread: go here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1430690#post1430690

 

[privatehudson]

Originally posted by MCdread
It is said in the sense that it has the oldest stable borders in Europe (the borders haven't changed since the XIII century), but I guess we all like simplicity. But you are right calgacus.

Hey man, I don't want to rain on your parade (Hey I got an aliens quote in! ) but apart from swapping Berwick and the like with the Scots, England hasn't changed that much as a nation since that time either in terms of geographical areas....

Perhaps I'm being dumb, but to my recollection, with exceptions like Berwick (that changed hands numerous times) England's been one entity since Norman times.

 

[MCdread]

@raen: I managed to found the thread.
@privatehudson: the point is that England isn't a state, it is part of the british state, while the borders of the portuguese nation-state are the same since that period, plus, didn't you have a a foot at France at some period in the XV century?

@raen & calgacus: after reading the thread, I have to say you are both wrong on some accounts and right on others. I'll just write about the Portugal vs. Spain issue, cause it's too damn late here and I have to go to bed. Simply put: Portugal and Spain are neither that different as raen and portuguese think and portuguese people in general like to think, but they are neither that similar as calgacus and northern european and anglo-saxon people in general believe. It is possible to draw a line between both countries in terms of culture and particulary mentality, although Spain is a very diverse country on their own, unlike Portugal that is very homogenous (sp?) from a cultural point of view. But on the other hand, it's not like we're alien to each other, and although we never looked at each other's face until the late XX century, one cannot forget that our cultural substrat is indeed the same, from pre-roman times to the El-Tarik's invasion. Plus, there is that little detail of Manuel I (or was it João III) writing to the spanish monarchs complaining of the abusive use of the title King of Spain, because Portugal was a part of Spain too, and definitily not subject to the so called King of Spain.

But History follows her path and after 800 years of Portugal as a separate identity than that of the rest of the peninsula, it can't be ignored that this country followed a different path and nowadays you only have to visit both Spain and Portugal to realise the difference, even if that was not allways the case.

As for calgacus changes in his civ file, do you really care about that? Anyway, raen, I notice someone asking where was calgacus from. Well, calgacus is from Scotland, and very proud of it, as much as you and portuguese (the poster) from Portugal, so you just have to introduce the words Britain and England. (Although I seem to remember calgacus has a peculiar view on this, which I can't really remember...). At least we have our own independent country.

Cheers.

 

[privatehudson]

England was and is a kingdom and country, it has continued to occupy the modern day england since roughly William the conquerer. Whilst your defenition may be accurate it is also pointlessly pedantic as it is as much a point against portugal as it is for it. Whilst you may have remained in portugal in terms of your nation, we on the other hand expanded ours to other areas such as Scotland and so on, we only lost parts of France, we maintained most of the UK though. The nation is Britian, my nationality is British, my country is England, there's a distinct difference.

Besides, you know Napoleon would have annexed you had we not turned up

 

[raen]

Originally posted by MCdread

As for calgacus changes in his civ file, do you really care about that?
Cheers.

Of course not!! he can do what he want a please him, but he cant say that Portugal was not a great power in their one time, maybe you missed that part because is late, that part is the one that bothers me

 

[Pangur Bán]

privatehudson, you're right. England is effectively the same state as the UK. All that occured in 1707 was the annexation of Scotland and a virtually meaningless change of name. The English had been using "Britain" and "England" interchangably since the High Middle Ages. England was a state since the dark ages.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by raen


Of course not!! he can do what he want a please him, but he cant say that Portugal was not a great power in their one time, maybe you missed that part because is late, that part is the one that bothers me

I said it wasn't a "super power" , but I confirmed it was a "great power". You're problem then, it seems, is that you pretend the two terms mean the same

 

[MCdread]

Actually, they would have split it between France and Spain under the agreement made with Godoy, the spanish minister.

But sure, it is just a technicality of little importance, but with all the "troubles" in France and Ireland (and the welsh case is also dubious, cause Wales is not a part of the kingdom of England, I think, but it used to be, when it was conquered in the middle ages), the english borders haven't been as much stable.

 

[raen]

Originally posted by calgacus


I said it wasn't a "super power" , but I confirmed it was a "great power". You're problem then, it seems, is that you pretend the two terms mean the same

Here we go again...I say the same thing... does not worth it....