Your favorite leader of your country in the last 50 years?

[Leoreth]

I won't contradict you there. Consistency is for losers anyway.

 

[Ajidica]

For some reason I've always liked Ford, but my favorite leader would be either LBJ or Carter. LBJ because of the Great Society and Civil Rights programs, but his support and escalation of the Vietnam War is a major check against him. I don't remember a lot about Carter but he seems pretty decent but just got shafted by the Oil Embargo and Iranian Revolution.

 

[Cutlass]

For some reason I've always liked Ford, but my favorite leader would be either LBJ or Carter. LBJ because of the Great Society and Civil Rights programs, but his support and escalation of the Vietnam War is a major check against him. I don't remember a lot about Carter but he seems pretty decent but just got shafted by the Oil Embargo and Iranian Revolution.

The thing about both Ford and Carter is that they were decent, moral, and thoughtful people. But they were not effective leaders.

 

[GhostWriter16]

For some reason I've always liked Ford, but my favorite leader would be either LBJ or Carter. LBJ because of the Great Society and Civil Rights programs, but his support and escalation of the Vietnam War is a major check against him. I don't remember a lot about Carter but he seems pretty decent but just got shafted by the Oil Embargo and Iranian Revolution.

I still don't understand how that LBJ thing meshes together. So 58,000 people died but we can overlook that because Great Society?

I despise leaders who poke hornets nests and get people killed for no reason. That's probably why I hate them all...

 

[Ajidica]

The thing about both Ford and Carter is that they were decent, moral, and thoughtful people. But they were not effective leaders.

I'm nowhere nearly as well read as I should be on Ford and Carter, but it seems to me that once you ignore the parts of Carter's presidency that any president would have suffered from he did alright for himself.

I still don't understand how that LBJ thing meshes together. So 58,000 people died but we can overlook that because Great Society?

Unlike you I don't view people in black or white. Furthermore, the Great Society and Civil Rights programs have played a massive role in American society and are continuing to play a role. I'm willing to bet your parents are roughly the same age as mine and they all reaped the benefits of Great Society programs, much as you and I continue to reap the benefits of those programs.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Yes, and also the massive bill that's being conveniently thrown down to my generation. Which, BTW, isn't any consolation to those slain in Vietnam, or those imprisoned because they didn't want to be forced to serve the state.

 

[Cutlass]

I'm nowhere nearly as well read as I should be on Ford and Carter, but it seems to me that once you ignore the parts of Carter's presidency that any president would have suffered from he did alright for himself.

The thing about that is, Carter had fairly tough times. But certainly not extremely tough times. And in a lot of ways he got fairly good answers. Eventually. But in the process of getting those answers he took far too long. Micromanaged many things far too much. Picked poor subordinates, or subordinates that could not work together, and was generally indecisive for long enough stretches of time to make him look worse than he really was.

He was a good man, but a poor leader.

 

[Ajidica]

Yes, and also the massive bill that's being conveniently thrown down to my generation.

Not really.

Spoiler size :

Although several of the Great Society programs (such as Medicare/Medicaid) are relatively expensive, their costs can be planned for and have a pretty decent return on investment consider the relatively poor state they have been allowed to deteriorate to. Educational spending and anti-poverty programs are relatively cheap compared to the economic return they give. The largest drivers of US debt are falling revenue due to tax cuts/loopholes, military expenditures, and failing to properly control spending increases.

Which, BTW, isn't any consolation to those slain in Vietnam, or those imprisoned because they didn't want to be forced to serve the state.

As I said, LBJs escalation of the Vietnam War constitutes a major negative in my opinion of him. Politicians, surprisingly enough, are not Gods. They are men like ourselves and have flaws and those have to be taken into account when determining their legacy.

 

[aronnax]

Aw sweet Jesus.

As much as I dislike the man, the party he built and the sociocultural entity he oppressed, streamlined and molded into something artificial and false, it is difficult to argue against a person who turned a small tiny impoverish state with heavy Communist dissent and racial riots into an economic powerhouse with a high human development index. Even if that means constructing an entire regime that destroyed civil liberties, controls press that will make Beijing impress, suppressed the political thought and independence of at least two generations of Singaporeans, annihilated the cultural variety of it's people and turned society into one giant monotonous, short-sighted, hypocritical, overly-nationalistic and socially under-developed blob who at best, make racists comments of other races and nationalities in the privacy of the own homes and at worst, calls for an apartheid like regime.

So Harry freaking Lee.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Although several of the Great Society programs (such as Medicare/Medicaid) are relatively expensive, their costs can be planned for and have a pretty decent return on investment consider the relatively poor state they have been allowed to deteriorate to. Educational spending and anti-poverty programs are relatively cheap compared to the economic return they give. The largest drivers of US debt are falling revenue due to tax cuts/loopholes, military expenditures, and failing to properly control spending increases.

Well, I'm certainly no fan of the military spending either. As for tax cuts, that's just letting people keep more of their own money, you can't really blame that.

It looks like that debt REALLY spiked under Obama... Not that I'm surprised...

 

[aronnax]

Well, I'm certainly no fan of the military spending either. As for tax cuts, that's just letting people keep more of their own money, you can't really blame that.

It looks like that debt REALLY spiked under Obama... Not that I'm surprised...

You do realise that a lot of that debt came from stimulus packages and bailouts that were injected into the economy so as to save it from the utter collapse that was the aftermath of the Bush era economic disaster?

You know? The Detroit car industries? Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009? etc.. etc... etc...

 

[Gucumatz]

Again more LBJ bashing? Had JFK remained president, you can bet your house more than 58,000 Americans would have died in combat. Nixon pulled the ultimate card, sabotaging the Peace Process by communicating with Hanoi prior to the election telling them to not sign any peace deal with LBJ.

LBJ did better handling Vietnam than any other politician who you could reasonably say would have been in his shoes could have done [Save for maybe Humphrey]. None of the Democratic leaders or Republican leaders could have or would have done better. Its called look at context - But of course a libertarian would hate LBJ, nothing surprising there

 

[Winston Hughes]

Aw sweet Jesus.

As much as I dislike the man, the party he built and the sociocultural entity he oppressed, streamlined and molded into something artificial and false, it is difficult to argue against a person who turned a small tiny impoverish state with heavy Communist dissent and racial riots into an economic powerhouse with a high human development index. Even if that means constructing an entire regime that destroyed civil liberties, controls press that will make Beijing impress, suppressed the political thought and independence of at least two generations of Singaporeans, annihilated the cultural variety of it's people and turned society into one giant monotonous, short-sighted, hypocritical, overly-nationalistic and socially under-developed blob who at best, make racists comments of other races and nationalities in the privacy of the own homes and at worst, calls for an apartheid like regime.

So Harry freaking Lee.

Great post.

 

[Masada]

I prefer David Marshall myself, aronnax.

Lim Yew Hock is also cool. Goes missing in Sydney, turns out he was a regular at strip joints and had an ongoing affair with a 19 year old stripper, turns up 10 days later after becoming sick and disorientated or something. Later converts to Islam and is buried in Mecca.

 

[Borachio]

Maybe there's something in the fact that there's no such thing as "Majorism". He was the quiet man between two political giants with movements to their name, and still won a decent electoral victory despite this.

Iain Duncan Smith, Conservative leader 2001-2003, was THE quiet man - and proclaimed, quietly: "Never underestimate the quiet man." So quiet, apparently, that when he entered the Chamber of the House of Commons, all the other members would go "Shhhhh."

I truly believe it was the comedic high point of British politics in the C20th. Despite happening in the C21st.

 

[Quackers]

You've really done it now Mr Borachio.

For that, I say this!


Link to video.

 

[Borachio]

And that was pretty nearly the last thing he ever said publicly. Hilarious.

 

[Ajidica]

Well, I'm certainly no fan of the military spending either. As for tax cuts, that's just letting people keep more of their own money, you can't really blame that.

When expenditures are going up, the solution is not to cut revenue. Given your obsession with the government balancing its budget I'm surprised you give such a ringing endorsement to poor fiscal policies.

It looks like that debt REALLY spiked under Obama... Not that I'm surprised...

Besides the Bailouts and Stimulus to keep our economy from going through a Greece-style meltdown, the additional debt mainly consists of increased spending due to automatic stabilizers kicking in and more people going onto welfare due to lower incomes.

 

[Quackers]

For what though?
All I see is stupendous amount of investment in public services; with nothing to show for it. Also, turning London into some slum, future dystopian city where poor dirty migrants do all the crap jobs and a rich world elite enjoy every vice imaginable whilst the honest briton is struggling to get by.
Surrendering to the EU. Worst social mobility since the Edwardian era. Promotion of a trashy view of British life and culture.

If we got the World Cup staged in England it would've been forgiven but it didn't happen

Whilst I still agree with what i said; I would have to say British foreign policy over his tenue was correct and had many successes. Sierre Leone and Kosovo being two minor conflicts where we intervened and brought stability to troubled regions. Where British might positively improved the lives of others.
Whilst, I think the whole "sexed up dossier" event was a disgusting smoking gun to invade Iraq I think in principle the ideas behind that adventure were good.

 

[GhostWriter16]

You do realise that a lot of that debt came from stimulus packages and bailouts that were injected into the economy so as to save it from the utter collapse that was the aftermath of the Bush era economic disaster?

You know? The Detroit car industries? Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009? etc.. etc... etc...

All stuff that is going to really hurt us in the long run. "Too big to fail" means "Big enough to be stupid." For all his flaws, and they were many, Mitt Romney was completely right to criticize those.

Again more LBJ bashing? Had JFK remained president, you can bet your house more than 58,000 Americans would have died in combat. Nixon pulled the ultimate card, sabotaging the Peace Process by communicating with Hanoi prior to the election telling them to not sign any peace deal with LBJ.

LBJ did better handling Vietnam than any other politician who you could reasonably say would have been in his shoes could have done [Save for maybe Humphrey]. None of the Democratic leaders or Republican leaders could have or would have done better. Its called look at context - But of course a libertarian would hate LBJ, nothing surprising there

Yeah, JFK had the good sense to stop breathing before he could cause too much trouble. William Henry Harrison was one of the best for that reason too

Ron Paul could have handled it better, even back then...

When expenditures are going up, the solution is not to cut revenue. Given your obsession with the government balancing its budget I'm surprised you give such a ringing endorsement to poor fiscal policies.

Oh, I don't care if they balance it. We're screwed at this point. It just took me awhile to fix it. Better to increase the debt than to increase the tax rate. If you can't democratically destroy the imperial state and the bread and circuses, starve it and let it die on its own.

Default is coming, might as well get it over with.

Besides the Bailouts and Stimulus to keep our economy from going through a Greece-style meltdown, the additional debt mainly consists of increased spending due to automatic stabilizers kicking in and more people going onto welfare due to lower incomes.

Solution: Abolish welfare and let the market fix itself. Oh yeah, you're a Keynesian. We aren't going to agree on this