What is your understanding of Satan?

[Maimonides]

Israelite9191, read the Book of Job. Satan is certainly a part of Jewish tradition, though much different from the Christian view of him.

 

[kuukkeli]

I am an atheist so my answer should be obvious.

 

[Israelite9191]

Israelite9191, read the Book of Job. Satan is certainly a part of Jewish tradition, though much different from the Christian view of him.

I have read it, in the original Hebrew and 5 English translations, and taught it at a Sunday yeshiva where I volunteer as a 6th grade teacher. Satan exists in the Jewish tradition as a minor angel who is something of a trickster figure equatable, though on a much lesser scale, to Loki of Norse mythology. The Satan of popular conception is purely a Christian invention based in large part on the Greco-Roman theology that combined Zoroastrian and Mithrian dualism with Greek hierarchical thinking, as well as the Jewish concept of the omniscient G-d, which in itself was significantly influenced by the Greek perception of Zeus. In Judaism Satan as he is reffered to here does not exist.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

Where's the option, "Just Satan doesn't exist?"

 

[Israelite9191]

Exactly my preference, which is why I didn't vote.

 

[scy12]

Maimonides if you continue to ask many simplistic questions i will ignore them. Try to be more observant.

Maimonides

Quote:
Originally Posted by scy12
God of Old testament is a far more evil and a far more interesting mythological creature.

G-d is evil? More evil than what?

: What is your understanding of Satan?

Satan's character is unfortunately underdeveloped and simplistic.
God of Old testament is a far more evil and a far more interesting mythological creature (Than Satan)

"God of Old testament" is also G-d of the New Testament & the Koran.

No he isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scy12
Satan's character is unfortunately underdeveloped and simplistic.

Why is that unfortunate?

Because God of Old testament is a far more evil and a far more interesting mythological creature

Originally Posted by scy12
One of my favorite scenes is when GOD (God of OLD testament) decides to "test" Abraham by ordering him to sacrifice his child. A scene that is extremely similar to Homer's Iliad where Agamemnon is forced by the Gods to sacrifice his child Iphigenia so the plague may stop. When both men are ready to Kill their child as the sadistic Gods order , a lamb appears and is sacrificed instead. Agamemnon defied the Gods by insulting a Beggar , so that was his punishment. What did Abraham do ?

I don't recall that Abraham did anything wrong or was being punished. Rather, as you said, this was a test of Abraham's faithfulness. Abraham's son, Isaac, wasn't harmed & G-d went on to make a Covenant with Abraham & his descendants. That hardly sounds sadistic.

Abraham as a father cares and fears for the destiny of his child anyway. If God said to Abraham his child would die from sickness it would be miserable enough. But not he was asked to KILL his son. Why should Abraham faith be tested ? As a father his obligations are with his son , not with an entity he and we do not understand. Again why should Abraham devotion to God should be tested in that sadistic way . Why an't he live at peace with his child ? Because the Dragon of the fairytale is sadistic.
Being ordered to Kill your son is Evil. That order causes agony , fear and sorrow to a father mad enough or weak enough that he has to think about sacrificing what is sacred to him to a Superior foreign entity. Whether the bastard will proceed to kill him or not doesn't invalidate the pain the order itself causes.

So that order is sadistic . The behaviour can be called that.
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scy12
Another sadistic act is : God orders the only Good people of Sodoma and Gomora to escape as the sinner's town would be destroyed. Only they shouldn't look back or else they will die. One of them does. He dies.

You are being very selective. According to the story, Lot asks G-d if the innocent will also be destroyed & G-d says no. Hardly sadistic.

He was a she-Lot's wife. Disobeying, G-d's Commandments in the Torah/Old Testament did come with terrible consequences, but He was the Creator of the universe & wiser than anything human... Sadistic is a silly term to be used decribing such a being..

Not using the term sadistic while describing such a being when he obviously is such is sillier.

Originally Posted by scy12
Being ordered to Kill your son is Evil. That order causes agony , fear and sorrow to a father mad enough or weak enough that he has to think about sacrificing what is sacred to him to a Superior foreign entity. Whether the bastard will proceed to kill him or not doesn't invalidate the pain the order itself causes.

God is either insecure and dumb or likes to cause suffering for fun. Sadism.

How can you describe G-d as a "Superior foreign entity" & then call Him "insecure & dumb?" That's an oxymoron.

Superior doesn’t mean wiser but it may mean stronger or more powerful.
There is no oxymoron.

Again, you are being selective. The Torah/Old Testament, New Testament & Koran clearly describe G-d as infinitiely wiser & more intelligent than humans. Therefore, calling him "dumb" based on these works is like an insect calling a human dumb. The insect can't possibly understand our motivations.

God is obviously written by humans. I am not judging a wise Being (God) as an insect . But as a human I judge a human creation. Also it is silly to say that B is wise therefore whatever B does is wise even if it isn’t.

I may be selective because I want to. In this case I wan to concentrate on the behavior of Old testament’s God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scy12
Thank God that he isn't real.

Thanking someone & stating that that someone isn't real in the same sentence isn't sane. If you're an atheist or agnostic, why would you thank G-d?

Quoting that sentence is unnecessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scy12
No we are . We are concentrating on Old testament's God only.

Who is "we?"

Another unnecessary quotation from you.
Me and the person I am discussing with.

The OP says nothing about a specific religion. Satan is an aspect of Judaism, Christianity & Islam. And I stated that

We are concentrating on Old testament's God only

 

[Shaihulud]

God want to be loved but he finds that he loses his worshippers when he does the smiting, so he invented the persona of Satan to do the smiting for him (any thing bad can be put down to Satan). Thats why God in OT and NT does not seem the same person. Propably God influenced Satan to rebel against him so it will look more legit to the other angels.

 

[Stacmon]

Is that correct? The Torah/Old Testament predates the Koran by many centuries & specifically states that Isaac was the sibling to be sacrificed.

It's my understanding that Arab Muslim tradition is that they are descended from Ishmael. Is that true?

First of all, yes it's true that both Jews and Muslims agree that Ishmael was the father of the Arabs, the same way that Isaac would father the Hebrews.

Now, regarding the Torah/Old Testament account of which son was sacrificed (again, the Torah claims it was Isaac, while the Qur'an claims it was Ishmael), there is a fairly easy way to explain the logic of the Muslim view.

The order to sacrifice Ishmael, not Isaac.

The narrative describing the son's sacrifice says that Abraham was to sacrifice his only son. Ishmael however was born before Isaac, so "only son" must refer to him. Before Isaac was born, it was possible for Abraham to only have one son (Ishmael), but since Isaac came second, it is no longer possible for him to only have one son.

Here is the verse to which I'm referring:

Genesis 22:2: "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac"

Some might choose to argue that "Ishmael" doesn't really count as Abraham's son, since he was the son of Abraham and Hagar (who he slept with because Sarah couldn't bear a son), not Abraham and Sarah (who was his beloved wife). However, this completely contradicts other verses in the Torah/Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 21:15-17: "If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he has, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his."

Islam does not deny God's blessings on Isaac and his descendants, but the son of promise is Ishmael, from whom arose Muhammad as the seal of the prophets.

Because of the above verses (along with other reasons) Muslims believe that God's promises are fulfilled through Ishmael, rather than Isaac. These promises include:

Genesis 12:2: "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing."

Genesis 13:16: "I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted."

Genesis 13:5: "He took him outside and said, 'Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.' Then he said to him, 'So shall your offspring be.'"

Genesis 17:4: "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations."

Genesis 17:8: The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Note that the Arabs, the children of Ishmael, made Canaan (Palestine) home after conquering it from the Romans.

The verses above are certainly consistent with the history of the Arabs and could certainly apply to them better than they apply to the Hebrews (there are about 300 million Arabs compared to about 15 million Jews).

I'll wrap up by stating the following verse.

Genesis 22:12: "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

Again, this would not be consistent with the rest of the Torah if Abraham already fathered two sons. The only way for it to make sense is if Abraham only had one son at the time, who would have been Ishmael (he was about 13 years older than Isaac).

You mentioned earlier that the Torah/Old Testament is much older than the Qur'an. That may be the case, but remember that Muslims believe the Qur'an to be the Word of God, and to be eternal. It was given to Muhammad (pbuh) as revelation in part to correct the errors/corruption that had resulted from previous scripture. It is accepted that the Qur'an has been preserved from the very beginnings of Islam, while the same can unfortunately not be said about the Old Testament.

 

[JollyRoger]

My understanding of Satan is that he tempts people into becoming prophets for the wrong things:

http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/

 

[Sidhe]

Is it the Greek version? I dont know. To me it just seems so obvious (that he symbolizes for us our animal nature, and our struggle with our most 'animalistic' impulses). He's even traditionally depicted as having two horns, cloven hooves, and a tail!

After Raphael he is supposed to be the most physically perfect angel. I think the horns and hoofs thing is a church representation. To be frank he can probably assume any form he wishes.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

After Raphael he is supposed to be the most physically perfect angel. I think the horns and hoofs thing is a church representation. To be frank he can probably assume any form he wishes.

Round up 100 people randomly on the street, give them crayons and paper and tell them to draw the Devil, and probably well over 90% will draw a human with horns, cloven hooves and a tail. This 'Devil', which is depicted as being very animal-like, is also the symbol for everything we think of as 'evil'. What do you suppose the significance of that is?

 

[El_Machinae]

It's not a surprise that Christians borrowed imagery from other religions. I believe that Pan is an influence for the goat legs and horns, and (I would guess) that the associations between goats and filth came later.

 

[Nick Garai]

Satan is a jerk. He's less powerful than God, but he isn't restricted to what God "allows" him to do; he has free will like every other angel and human. Because he came out on the losing end of an "argument" with God, he chooses to take his revenge by tormenting God's creation.

It would be like if you got into an argument with your big strong neighbor and since you knew you couldn't beat him in a fight, you kick his dog every time you get the chance.

"Free Will" is something given to people. That is a special gift that Angels do not have when they were created or reproduce (depending on if you consdier the theory that the angels/demons are a race unto themselves). They are servants and messengers who were originally designed to do what God says without question unlike mortals (us) who are permitted that incredible gift to question and say no. Angels cannot say no.

 

[Israelite9191]

The one problem there, Stacmon, is that Abraham did not marry Hagar, but rather took her as a concubine. There is a clear, if slight, difference between the two. Thus, Isaac, as Abraham's only son by Sarah who was the actual wife of Abraham, is also to be considered Abraham's only legitimate son while Ishmael, to be frank in wording, was a bastard child. However, the rabbinic commentary does recognise that as the first offspring, if not "son," of Abraham, Ishmael and his descendents do recieve something of a special blessing from G-d.

 

[Nick Garai]

Israelite9191 are you a Messianic believer?

(off topic)

 

[Harbringer]

Satan is who people blame there own incompetence for.

 

[Israelite9191]

A Messianic Jew, as in Christian Judaism? Definately not. Also, I am not a member of Lubavitch or any of the Hassidic "Meshiach is eminent" groups. I am a Conservative Branch Jew with very liberal social views. I did, however, graduate from an Orthodox Yeshiva three (IIRC) years ahead of schedule and at the top of the class.

 

[Sidhe]

Round up 100 people randomly on the street, give them crayons and paper and tell them to draw the Devil, and probably well over 90% will draw a human with horns, cloven hooves and a tail. This 'Devil', which is depicted as being very animal-like, is also the symbol for everything we think of as 'evil'. What do you suppose the significance of that is?

Oh I know what people think he looks like,the fact is though this image bears no more relationship between the bible than Santa does to St Nicholas.

It's a fabrication, Satan if he were real according to the bible can assume any form from a dragon to a man, his true form though is one of overwhelming beauty like all Archangels. At least according to scripture, what's in the Divine comedy and Faust is anyone's guess

 

[Irish Caesar]

At least according to scripture, what's in the Divine comedy and Faust is anyone's guess

Longfellow's translation:

28 The Emperor of the kingdom dolorous
29 From his mid-breast forth issued from the ice,
30 And better with a giant I compare

31 Than do the giants with those arms of his;
32 Consider now how great must be that whole,
33 Which unto such a part conforms itself.

34 Were he as fair once, as he now is foul,
35 And lifted up his brow against his Maker,
36 Well may proceed from him all tribulation.

37 O, what a marvel it appeared to me,
38 When I beheld three faces on his head!
39 The one in front, and that vermilion was;

40 Two were the others, that were joined with this
41 Above the middle part of either shoulder,
42 And they were joined together at the crest;

43 And the right-hand one seemed 'twixt white and yellow
44 The left was such to look upon as those
45 Who come from where the Nile falls valley-ward.

46 Underneath each came forth two mighty wings,
47 Such as befitting were so great a bird;
48 Sails of the sea I never saw so large.

49 No feathers had they, but as of a bat
50 Their fashion was; and he was waving them,
51 So that three winds proceeded forth therefrom.

52 Thereby Cocytus wholly was congealed.
53 With six eyes did he weep, and down three chins
54 Trickled the tear-drops and the bloody drivel.

55 At every mouth he with his teeth was crunching
56 A sinner, in the manner of a brake,
57 So that he three of them tormented thus.

 

[Prince_Imrahil]

My understanding of Satan?

He's a man of wealth and taste
He's been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
He was round when jesus christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
He stuck around st. petersburg
saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
He rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
He watched with glee
While kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
He shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me (or that one guy at least)
He's laid traps for troubadours
Who got killed before they reached bombay
He's called lucifer
He's in need of some restraint
and his greatest trick was
convincing the world that
he exists!