What is your understanding of Satan?

[MRM]

This is the same with God; The righteous will praise Him ...

... and are sometimes allowed to rape virgins,

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

that is the "good" god of the old testament.

 

[Till]

IIRC This is the Greek version, Wasn't he the ruler of the underworld? In scripture he is beautiful as will as an angel and the ruler of earth, the exact opposide

The ruler of the underworld is Hades, brother of Zeus and Poseidon. He's no better or worse than the other two. Unpopular, but not evil. I don't think the ancient Greeks had a concept of 'Satan', maybe because Zeus and his gang were quite morally ambiguous themselves...
To my knowledge, the idea of a good god vs. an evil one was first developed in Zoroastrianism, in both were equally powerful.

Edit: Maybe you are thinking of Pan, whose appearance (horns, hoofs) is occasionally used to portray Satan.

 

[scy12]

Of course carrying out such an order would be extremely difficult, but again, if God is speaking to you and has convinced you of His existence, then it's not as though some religious official is issuing the same order and claiming it's source is God.

The way you describe the situation, you seem to hold that there is no afterlife as given, meaning that the death of the son means the disappearance of his soul.

We're talking about this story from a scriptural point of view. This means that we take the assumption as given that God exists and that this child will have a place in the afterlife.

I will have to agree that we are assuming anything the scripture say is true. However if the scripture says God is wise and Gods acts unwise then he isn't wise.

Abraham as a father cares and fears for the destiny of his child anyway. If God said to Abraham his child would die from sickness it would be miserable enough. But not he was asked to KILL his son. Why should Abraham faith be tested ? As a father his obligations are with his son , not with an entity he and we do not understand. Again why should Abraham devotion to God should be tested in that sadistic way . Why can't he live at peace with his child ? Because the Dragon of the fairytale is sadistic.

Not at all, that's a completely outrageous interpretation. God doesn't ask Abraham do to this because he wants Abraham to suffer, instead, the purpose is to test his faith and see how deep his trust (and submission) is.

God should understand the consequences of his actions. He is asking A father to put him above his child. That is cruel.

Then God is either stupid or evil. (Selfish ,self-centered ,sadistic)

Recall that in the end, the innocent child wasn't killed, instead he was spared at the moment when it was obvious that Abraham was completely willing to do this.

Muslims for example believe that everything we possess is due to the mercy of God. Therefore, should He choose to take it away, we must be prepared to relinquish it. The same applies to children or family members, of course Muslims would be saddened and in mourning, but they acknowledge that "this life" is transitory and that no one, no matter how healthy will live forever.

I respect Muslim beliefs but i am concentrating on the Old testament here which is a different part of this/that or other religions.

Again, you assume that God does these things (ie: Day of Judgement) to harm and cause pain to people. If God takes a life, and that person was good, they will end up in paradise.

If this life is a test, as Muslims understand it to be, then ending such a test and permitting a person to spend eternity in paradise is a great mercy.

Imagine for a second that paradise does exist, and that if your time there is infinite, any amount of time spent on Earth will seem unbelievably short. Any trials or suffering you endured on Earth are quickly overshadowed

.

Of course he does those actions to harm and cause pain to people , as a character he was written that way. Why should God take a life ? Who gives him the right to do so? Are we living in our own free will or is this a journey that can be decided by God flipping a dice. Like the Game Black and White. Yes that God is a self-centered individual alright.

 

[Smellincoffee]

The church I was raised in played Satan as possible the dumbest creature ever made by God. He was once a worship leader in Heaven, but rebelled. Bitter against God, he stuck out against humanity (who were "made in God's image") and caused them to fall. Today he works to lead humans away from God and then to kill them. His goal is the extermination of the human race, but he's used at every turn to further the Will of God and will eventually be cast into hell.

I always thought Satan was a moron in light of this story. I've studied Judaism a bit, and their view on Satan seems much saner. Everything I've read about the Jewish notion of Satan casts him as one of God's angels: he is the adversary and accuser of humanity who tempts us as part of his job. These days, I believe in neither Satan nor God.

 

[Shadylookin]

he's a myth. For some reason he is depicted as a satyr when clearly the bible states he was beautiful. given this and that fact that he has a very minuscule role in the bible I would say he's more of a cultural icon than a religious one.

 

[BassDude726]

Satan, in my understanding, is nothing more than an ancient interpretation of the general tendencies in human nature to do bad things. Violence, greed, and deceit are just a few examples.

Ancient peoples had no way of understanding these baser urges. Why did they steal? Why did they "covet thy neighbor's wife"? They needed to create a dogmatic system of beliefs surrounding human nature as a way to absolve themselves of responsibility.

In short, the devil made them do it.

 

[Stacmon]

Why should God take a life ? Who gives him the right to do so? Are we living in our own free will or is this a journey that can be decided by God flipping a dice. Like the Game Black and White. Yes that God is a self-centered individual alright.

If one assumes God to exist and to have created man (and all things), he indeed has a right to take whatever life he chooses and to pass judgement on whomsoever he chooses.

Remember that we're assuming that if God exists, there is also "life" after death. In that respect, God taking the life of someone on Earth is only bringing them to their eternal abode faster.

 

[Phlegmak]

IIRC This is the Greek version, Wasn't he the ruler of the underworld? In scripture he is beautiful as will as an angel and the ruler of earth, the exact opposide

There is no Greek Satan. You're thinking of Hades, who merely rules the underworld. How he rules, I don't know. He isn't anymore inherently evil than any other Greek god. He doesn't tempt people to do evil either. So he's not a Satan figure.

 

[Bill3000]

Remember that we're assuming that if God exists, there is also "life" after death. In that respect, God taking the life of someone on Earth is only bringing them to their eternal abode faster.

That's not a necessary assumption - early Judaism did not have a concept of an afterlife.

 

[Stacmon]

That's not a necessary assumption - early Judaism did not have a concept of an afterlife.

Fair enough but we're not limiting our discussion purely to that. We're also talking about Christianity, Islam and other religions that believe in God/an afterlife.

Even if we were to shelf the assumption of an afterlife, God as described by the Hebrews was clearly very powerful and had the ability to do a great many things. Therefore, if Abraham had resisted in sacrificing his son, God could have caused him to die in a multitude of ways, had he wished it.

My point is that Abraham was in contact with God and therefore was convinced of His existence.

 

[Peuri]

From what I've gathered from the Bible Satan is the good guy who revolted against a malevolent God. The Bible is written trying to cover up the fact that the "good" God is actually evil, an interesting plot actually. But in reality neither really exist.

 

[warpus]

Remember that we're assuming that if God exists, there is also "life" after death. In that respect, God taking the life of someone on Earth is only bringing them to their eternal abode faster.

If that were true Muslims and Christians would be lining up to get killed so they can go to heaven.

Surely either they do not believe in the afterlife OR you're misanalyzing something or other

 

[Nylan]

A lot of them do line up to get killed

 

[Stacmon]

If that were true Muslims and Christians would be lining up to get killed so they can go to heaven.

Surely either they do not believe in the afterlife OR you're misanalyzing something or other

That's misleading. I can't speak for Christians (who claim access to Heaven through belief in Jesus Christ as their saviour and blood sacrifice), but in the case of Muslims, a person earns a greater reward in the afterlife based on how he/she behaves in this life.

For example, through prayer, charity, good deeds, etc. a person improves their station in paradise. On the other hand by committing sins and doing less than desirable things, a person worsens their position.

Basically Muslims have a different understanding of Paradise. Rather than being identical to all people, regardless of how good they are (some after all may have just squeezed in!), peoples' reward from God depends on their piety, their commitment and their level of submission.

In other words, people aren't tripping over themselves to die and go to Paradise because the longer they spend on Earth, the greater the chance they have to prove themselves, do good deeds and accumulate blessings.

With that said, it is understood that different people will live different lives. Whereas one person will face immense trials, battle a frightening disease and die at 18 years old, another may live in almost perfect health past 100 years. Muslims understand that there is no better judge and no one more fair than God, so no one curses Him that this 18 year old had so little time to do good works. Everyone faces unique trials and leads a unique life.

 

[scy12]

Fair enough but we're not limiting our discussion purely to that. We're also talking about Christianity, Islam and other religions that believe in God/an afterlife.

Even if we were to shelf the assumption of an afterlife, God as described by the Hebrews was clearly very powerful and had the ability to do a great many things. Therefore, if Abraham had resisted in sacrificing his son, God could have caused him to die in a multitude of ways, had he wished it.

My point is that Abraham was in contact with God and therefore was convinced of His existence.

No we are . We are concentrating on Old testament's God only.

 

[Stacmon]

No we are . We are concentrating on Old testament's God only.

Well, certainly some of the discussion is centered on the Old Testament, but recall that the New Testament takes the Old Testament events as given.

Islam believes that the Old Testament has been corrupted since all of the described events took place and that the revelation sent to Jesus no longer exists (the New Testament after all certainly didn't come from him).

To be honest, I wasn't aware of some of the events described in the Old Testament. I reserve judgement about God however to what I read in the Qur'an (believing it to be the most accurate source on the subject). Some of the events mentioned in the Old Testament however are also described in the Qur'an. There are however many differences.

For instance, we've been talking about Abraham sacrificing his son. Jews and Christians believe that son to be Isaac, while Muslims believe him to be Ishmael.

 

[Ansar]

I think he is the guy in hell who tortures bad people for doing bad things on Earth and not truthfully forgiving themselves for doing it.

 

[Lotus49]

The second choice was my vote, and it is clearly the correct selection.

 

[Maimonides]

God of Old testament is a far more evil and a far more interesting mythological creature.

G-d is evil? More evil than what?

"God of Old testament" is also G-d of the New Testament & the Koran.

Satan's character is unfortunately underdeveloped and simplistic.

Why is that unfortunate?

One of my favorite scenes is when GOD (God of OLD testament) decides to "test" Abraham by ordering him to sacrifice his child. A scene that is extremely similar to Homer's Iliad where Agamemnon is forced by the Gods to sacrifice his child Iphigenia so the plague may stop. When both men are ready to Kill their child as the sadistic Gods order , a lamb appears and is sacrificed instead. Agamemnon defied the Gods by insulting a Beggar , so that was his punishment. What did Abraham do ?

I don't recall that Abraham did anything wrong or was being punished. Rather, as you said, this was a test of Abraham's faithfulness. Abraham's son, Isaac, wasn't harmed & G-d went on to make a Covenant with Abraham & his descendants. That hardly sounds sadistic.

That Greek mythology is kinda off topic as it had nothing to do with Satan or G-d.

Another sadistic act is : God orders the only Good people of Sodoma and Gomora to escape as the sinner's town would be destroyed. Only they shouldn't look back or else they will die. One of them does. He dies.

You are being very selective. According to the story, Lot asks G-d if the innocent will also be destroyed & G-d says no. Hardly sadistic.

He was a she-Lot's wife. Disobeying, G-d's Commandments in the Torah/Old Testament did come with terrible consequences, but He was the Creator of the universe & wiser than anything human... Sadistic is a silly term to be used decribing such a being.

Satan is a symbol of Mans Animal Nature. Thats why he's thought of as being evil.

edit: Two legs = good. Two horns = bad.

To me it just seems so obvious (that he symbolizes for us our animal nature, and our struggle with our most 'animalistic' impulses). He's even traditionally depicted as having two horns, cloven hooves, and a tail!

By that logic, animals are evil.

IIRC This is the Greek version, Wasn't he the ruler of the underworld? In scripture he is beautiful as will as an angel and the ruler of earth, the exact opposide

Is it the Greek version? I dont know.

I don't think the ancient Greeks had a concept of 'Satan', maybe because Zeus and his gang were quite morally ambiguous themselves...

Satan is a Hebrew name that 1st appears in the Torah/Old Testament. He was not part of Greek pagan mythology.

Hades was the ruler of the underworld in Greek mythology. Christianity adopted this pagan tradition in creating hell & associating Satan with Hades. Many pagan traditions have been adopted by Christanity.

Being ordered to Kill your son is Evil. That order causes agony , fear and sorrow to a father mad enough or weak enough that he has to think about sacrificing what is sacred to him to a Superior foreign entity. Whether the bastard will proceed to kill him or not doesn't invalidate the pain the order itself causes.

God is either insecure and dumb or likes to cause suffering for fun. Sadism.

How can you describe G-d as a "Superior foreign entity" & then call Him "insecure & dumb?" That's an oxymoron.

Again, you are being selective. The Torah/Old Testament, New Testament & Koran clearly describe G-d as infinitiely wiser & more intelligent than humans. Therefore, calling him "dumb" based on these works is like an insect calling a human dumb. The insect can't possibly understand our motivations.

Thank God that he isn't real.

Thanking someone & stating that that someone isn't real in the same sentence isn't sane. If you're an atheist or agnostic, why would you thank G-d?

... and are sometimes allowed to rape virgins,

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

that is the "good" god of the old testament.

That site is absurd. There is no Jewish or Christian doctrine that permits or condones rape.

Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".

That passage never mentions rape. The crime described is adultery. The passage never claims the woman is property, yet that site puts the term in quotes. Nonesense.

Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

Again, rape is never mentioned in the passage.

Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

The purpose here is to protect the victim & punish the offender. A rape victim in those days would have never found a husband. Note it says, "a young woman who is not engaged." As her husband, the offender would be obligated to care for her & any children resulting from the rape. It also forces him to pay the dowry that her family would never receive if she couldn't be married as a result.

If that were true Muslims and Christians would be lining up to get killed so they can go to heaven.

Surely either they do not believe in the afterlife OR you're misanalyzing something or other

Suicide is considered a great sin in Judaism & Christianity. I don't know the Muslim doctrine, but there are certainly Muslims who are commiting suicide because they believe the outcome meets G-d's approval.

No we are . We are concentrating on Old testament's God only.

Who is "we?"

The OP says nothing about a specific religion. Satan is an aspect of Judaism, Christianity & Islam.

To be honest, I wasn't aware of some of the events described in the Old Testament. I reserve judgement about God however to what I read in the Qur'an (believing it to be the most accurate source on the subject). Some of the events mentioned in the Old Testament however are also described in the Qur'an. There are however many differences.

For instance, we've been talking about Abraham sacrificing his son. Jews and Christians believe that son to be Isaac, while Muslims believe him to be Ishmael.

Is that correct? The Torah/Old Testament predates the Koran by many centuries & specifically states that Isaac was the sibling to be sacrificed.

It's my understanding that Arab Muslim tradition is that they are descended from Ishmael. Is that true?

I think he is the guy in hell who tortures bad people for doing bad things on Earth and not truthfully forgiving themselves for doing it.

So anyone who forgives themselves goes to heaven?

 

[Israelite9191]

I am Jewish and thus I believe that Satan does not exist. For my view on evil, read my sig.