What is your view of Ioannes Metaxas?

Kyriakos

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I had always the stance in regards to the newer historical era of Greece that it would be too sad to read about it. Particularly after 1920. Metaxas was the PM since 1936, although later on he was vital in suspending parts of the Greek constitution due to a "state of emergency" declared.

Before being PM he had a military history and studies in Germany. He was important in the two Balkan wars, which were largely victorious for Greece (the ending of the second Balkan war was bordering on disaster though, and the gains of Greece in 1913- Treaty of Bucharest- were not as great as they originally were meant to be).

Metaxas famously opposed Eleutherios Venizelos (PM of Greece most importantly during the Balkan wars, late WW1, and the first phase of the Greek-Turkish war) when Venizelos asked in Parliament that Greece should join the Allies in WW1 so as to help them with their Dardanelles campaign. Metaxas argued that it would be a very bad move, given that the allies had already sent some of their best battleships to the straits, and Greece could not afford to lose its own ships and be effectively open to counter-attack.

When Venizelos lost the election during the Greek-Turkish war (a war which Metaxas had expressed arguments against, due to logistics) the military and ethnic disaster was near for Greece, and in 1922 the treaty of Sevres was cancelled. Greece lost all Eastern Thrace and the parts of Asia Minor it was awarded in 1920.

In 28 of October 1940 Italy's embassador to Greece, Emanuelle Grazzi, arrived to ask that Greece will grant the right to pass into its territory to Italian troops. Metaxas denied this. It was dawn, and the next day people woke up to the radio announcing the state of war between Greece and Italy.

Metaxas had built a series of forts in the Greek and Bulgarian border, which effectively protected Greece from Bulgaria, and later on caused heavy cassualties to German troops which tried to enter Macedonia through Bulgaria. While mostly remembered for his victory over the Italian invasion, and the consequent march of the Greek Army deep into Albania, then an Italian puppet-state, he is also heavily linked to European fascist movements, like in Germany, Spain and Italy.

His notoriety is largely a reflection of the old Schism in Greek politics, which was mostly the effect of the struggle between Venizelos and King Constantine, in 1914, which led first to Venizelos resigning as a PM, and later on forming a new government in Macedonia, centered in Thessalonike, so as to invite the Allies to land there.

Ioannes Metaxas:

b3594-metaxas.jpg


King Constantine I and Venizelos:

Konstantine_Venizelos_1913.jpg


ochiday.jpg
 
a rarity in that he is not much into invading Turkey and didn't he die simply for refusing Churchill ?
 
My opinion is that the bastard cheated the Greeks out of the chance to string him up like the Italians did with Benny. Dictators can be very self-centred like that.
 
I am not sure just how undemocratic his four years as a PM before war with Italy were. He died in January of 1941 (before the german invasion) due to health issues.

I would not really compare him with Mussolini though, given that Metaxas actually wanted to stay out of WW2. Franco, on the other hand, had a huge civil war so as to be installed, whereas Metaxas was largely installed by the King, George II.

Useful to note also that immediately after the end of WW2 Greece had a civil war, which is often argued to have been caused externally so as to not allow Greece to claim lands following WW2 (as in Bulgaria or Albania). The civil war was fought between the standing army (with English help) and communist militias which had taken part in the resistance movements during German occupation.

The Civil war was probably the worst era of Greece in the 20th century. It ended in 1949.
 
From the perspective of the ordinary Greek, the question of "how undemocratic" the Metaxas could be regarded was wholly academic. His regime suspended parliamentary democracy, civil rights and independent political or trade union activity, so the fact that various big-wigs could still get their say meant very little. Nor is his reluctance to join in with the war a redeeming characteristic- at least, not unless we're planning to extend the same redemption to Franco, Salazar and Stalin.

The civil war doesn't have any bearing on this. The survival of Metaxas or his regime has no bearing would not have prevented it, any more than the death of Mussolini and the collapse of his regime produced a civil war in Italy.
 
I have not really studied this, however i do know that those who argue in favor of Metaxas mostly refer to the era, the horrible environment around Greece (hostile Italy-Albania and Bulgaria, Yugoslavia being generally not friendly either), and some positive works (the useful fort complexes in the north and the creation of a large national insurance organization). At that era most of Europe was fascist-friendly anyway, if not outright fascist.

While we can not know what would have happened if Metaxas had survived (since that would need Germany not invading, and that does not look likely at any rate), a figure linked for better or worse to victory during WW2 would have been able to command more unity for the national side. Even more importantly he would have been more likely to effectively disable any sort of communist army from forming, given that his rise to being PM was already linked to anti-communist sentiments.

For what it is worth, the are many cinema pieces and news pieces on the public's enthousiasm to go to war so as to defend Greece in 1940. This has many reasons and little would be directly linked to positive feelings for Metaxas, however it could be argued that it shows that Metaxas was not seen as some ruthless dictator either.
 
And, again, we're arguing for the virtues of Josef Stalin. He kept Russia safe from its enemies, he provided a unifying force against the threat of both foreign powers and local insurgents, and the enthusiasm of many ordinary Russians for his regime's war efforts demonstrates that he wasn't seen as a one-dimensionally monstrous overlord.

That's the trick about finding sympathy for a devil- find it for one of them, you end up for finding it for the lot.
 
Regardless of what he did before the war, he assisted in the opening of the Haidari concentration camp and assisted in mass murder. He's no different than Pierre Laval, Vidkun Quisling, Chaim Rumkowski, or Ferenc Szalasi.
 
Most people in Greece view him as a good person because most people know that he refused to surrender to the Italians but do not know that he was a Dictator.

In reality, Metaxas was a figurehead. The real Dictator was George II, the most dictatorial of all Greek Kings. And that is the reason why Monarchy did not survive in Greece. When in other countries the Kings decided to reign and not to rule, in Greece the Kings always tried to rule.
 
Actually he was dead before the nazis occupied Greece, so your claim is rather utterly wrong. The camp started operating in 1943, way into the era that Greece was occupied by the Nazis in ww2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidari_concentration_camp

My apologies, I pulled the trigger too quickly on that one. I legitimately confused him and another Ioannes who was the leader of the Greek collaborationist government. Regardless, Metaxas doesn't strike me as someone who exactly is pristine. Especially on the whole social policies stuff.
 
Metaxas is light-years ahead of Mussolini or Hitler, but still far from a good person. He was a fairly skilful dictator and conducted a clever foreign policy aimed at being friendly with both Britain and Germany. It it wasn't for the fact that Hitler and Mussolini were already co-belligerents in a pre-existing war, it's very unlikely Greece would have had to fight the Germans due to Metaxas' friendly relations with the latter. He also seems to have been a considerably better strategist than the majority of his rival generals and politicians.

None of this excuses his domestic policies, of course; the man was a brutal dictator. But despite presiding over a para-fascist regime and being a Germanophile, he was better than the average for the region at the time.
 
Also, he did not considered Jews as second class citizens but as Greeks.
 
none of which follows is verifiable history . You takes your pick with care and bets none money on it .

it's February 1940 and the Russians have broken through in Finland . The US has been keen to help the brave Finns with credit extensions and stuff ; as such they have access to Finns' combat reports . With alarming news of an heavy . The Finns talk a lot about the "Dreadnoughts" they have destroyed , but real claims about the new single turret tank do not abound .

then a Yank passing by drops by . Now between you and me , this Yank is the dude that Herman Wouk's Pug Henry in the Winds of War starts off , right with the taciturn face and he meets a bunch who are wargaming . What ? Anything else to expect ? The scenario , no doubt in honour of the Yank , assumes the American Atlantic Fleet forcing the Straits . To get into the Black Sea and the Russians will roll over and die out of fear .

right off the bat we sink North Carolina . An hour of arguments ensues . Since she's America's newest , not even commissioned yet , the Yank naturally can't say why we heathen landlubbers can not even scratch the paint off a mighty Battleship . The game re-starts with shore to ship numbers re-adjusted to favour the USN . Then we attack with the jets we bought from Germany . The arguments re-start , now that this is something really new ; jets and stuff . It finally turns into a debate about the relative merits of the FW-190 as a fighter bomber . ( Wargame results ? Since frying Americans is the perfect bliss on Earth , am sure the "oldies for the oldies" would have found something . )

that night lots of report writing takes place . Ours -as in written in Turkish- lands on the desk of Metaxas within 3 months . Will get him dead in the end .

ww2 comes to Med soon . And Churchill knows what he wants . He wants 50 Balkan divisions to advance on the soft underbelly of Germany , Austria and environs and Churchill wants the 50 divisions to be ready to fight the Russians as well . Doesn't matter if Russians are the Axis or the Allies . Metaxas politely asks : Come 1941 , will the UK still be in the war ? September comes and Churchill sends stills of combat footage showing Luftwaffe planes going down , each in a thousand pieces . Metaxas plays the jets angle ; by then the He-280 has already started flying as a glider . And it's so far a decent plane ...

then Mussolini enters the fray . His African armies have been stuck all over the place ; when Greece falls we will wet our pants and allow transit to his mighty legions from Italy . So that Arabs can be induced to rise against Britain and Britain's Zionist masters . Cairo awaits Mussolini and his victory parade , him on his white stallion . Churchill stops pursuing routed Italians across the Western Desert . It's against his very constitution that people can defeat other people without asking him first . He demands a British presence in Greece . Period .

metaxas reminds Germans are finally about to get some working jet engines . The Yank needs continious surveillance on us and Intelligence is quite the barter business ... Jet engines mean German jets , German jets mean destroyed Spitfires and destroyed Spitfires mean unopposed Stukas and unopposed Stukas mean lots of dead infantry on the ground . Will Mr. Churchill send Spitfires to Greece , let alone British jets ?

now that's one too many . It was Churchill himself who came up with the lie back in 1916 that Germany forced us to accept a deal where we gave a free pass through the Straits -in addition to half of the country- to get Russians deferring their own March 18th, 1915 and merrily watching the British and French get a bloody nose . And it was this very Metaxas who had come up with all sorts of excuses to refuse Greek troops for an invasion of Thrace , which meant an abundance of Turks in Gallipoli . There is a reason that all you will hear in Intelligese is just mumble mumble Turks this , Turks that mumble mumble. An example would be made of the man who used Churchill's canard on Churchill ...

had Mr. Churchill had been equally determined about Mr. Schicklegruber , the world might have been a better place .

the American version of the wargame was soon edited with the sinking of Blucher by the Norwegians at Oslo . A follow up written by an aviation insider suggested that PW's R-2800 should be kept alive , it could be outperforming the preferred choice , Wright's R-2600 , at the end of respective development cycles . In the same paper Grumman was advised of foreign developments and required to mind them in the drafting of the 2000 hp Wildcat . The relationship between F8F and the '190 is not that the Americans copied and reverse engineered but the Bearcat was sized to defeat the German plane . Though the "urgency" as implied by the FW also meant a "crash" programme that produced the F6F , which would prove to be amply capable of defeating the A6M . Many in the US thought the '190 and the Zero was one and the same at the time , a 1937 type lightweight with no capacity for speed or anything else , apart from basic agility . And if you think it was such a nice coincidence for Lagg-3 to be so right for a Russian radial in the desperate times of '42 , think again . Radials for fighters was deemed passe in 1940 -certainly in Democracies, but for one Yank in USN uniform . (Even the USN would be forced to re-think after the crash of the F4U prototype , which "alas" proved to be too strong and the test R-2800 was salvaged quite intact ...)

churchill ignored the American follow up entirely . He knew it , he had invented the whole thing , right ? As such when the FW-190A entered service , RAF ignored the "P-66 Vanguard with a BMW engine" to the utmost of its capacity . All those radial engined German planes were actually P-36s captured in Norway and France . Luckily for the British pilots , Germans had quite a few problems with their PW inspired engine and it took a fair amount of time for them to get going . And when they did , they did it with a bang . ı have read about the days in an article by a Canadian fighter pilot in some aviation magazine . He survived an encounter with Luftwaffe , to claim one or two . Those de-briefing him were quite amused at his colourful account . It was like the usual fisherman's tale , who would catch a fish size of his hand and it would grow bigger everyday , almost to the proportions of a whale . The intel officers' faces fell when the pilot made them understand the new German plane was that good ... It wasn't totally forgotten though , if one has read the articles in some Air International magazines from the '90s , it will be easy to see that RAF took great pains to describe it as the P-47 . You know , developed in America by emigrees from Russia and it was quite common knowledge in the 1920 and '30s that Turks were the honest intermediary between Von Seeckt's Germany and Russia . And would Washington please do something about that ? Starting from the Yank ?

if you take Churchill as a vindictive schemer always eager to correct his failures and get his revenge and kick the hell out of anybody that reminded of the not so glorious sections of his past but somehow doubt it all , you should read more about his meeting with Inönü in Adana . Where he offered us - as far as the legend goes- battleships already scrapped after 1922 Washington treaties to get us into the war .

the RAF spent a year to accept the FW-190 , though short of going all the way with the Griffon and making it the standart fighter engine , they couldn't possibly field a match for the German fighter any sooner than they did with the Spitfire Mk. 9 . Considering what the later generations of Merlin did , foremost on the P-51 escorting bombers to Berlin and beyond , that year-long denial might have meant a lot . So if you ever hear that Turks prolonged the WW2 for a year or two to atrrite the Red Army to considerable incapacity and entirely wash out the bloody Englischer , that's the whole of it . We ain't responsible , we didn't do it . Come on , it would have mean that we made America ! As in global hot-shot and all ... Sure , sure , ı am a starship captain , too ... Churchill was enough , on his own . Instead of getting Metaxas and losing Greece , he might cleared Libya and induced an uprising in the "Vichy" Africa .
 
Was that really needed? Turkey was not even in WW2 :(

The allies were, as usual, all talk. In the end they betrayed us yet again and Greece effectively only received the dodecanese (Rhodes and islands around it) following WW2.

At least northern Epirus (nowdays southermost part of Albania) should have been ceded. Damned "allies" :(
 
and wasn't that somehow related to why you were in WW2 ? Namely , your people saw no qualms in getting rid of Metaxas since Churchill was there ? What was kinda worse in that the resolute stand of the replacements gave confidence to the Serbs not only to topple their pro-Axis Goverment but be defiant about it , too .
 
Metaxas and King George II made the right choice by joining the Allies.
 
De Valera managed it.
Eamon? Since when did the Axis attack Ireland? There were a few collaborators in the IRA, certainly, but they would have been anti-De Valera anyway. I am unaware of any ROI deaths resulting from the Belfast Blitz, if that's what you're talking about, but even if they had it was British soil, no matter what De Valera might have thought.
 
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