What is your view of Ioannes Metaxas?

When Serbia fell to the Austrians, the Allies wanted to use Thessalonica as a temporary capital of Serbia. Of course, this would give claims to Thessalonica. The Serbians and later the Yugoslavians wanted to have an Agean Port. That's why Tito supported "Macedonian" nationalists.



Because the people would be unite? Because the French would not use the excuse of the Pro-Axis King to stop helping Greece?
The French were pulling out regardless. Constantine's return merely gave them a good excuse. They were already negotiating with Ataturk. Why would the people of Greece, who were very anti-war in general by this point, unite under Venizelos simply because the king didn't interfere with his plans for Megali Idea? It wasn't a universal ideal in Greece.

Tito supported communist insurgencies in several surrounding countries. He'd certainly have taken Thessalonica if he could get it, but he never really had a shot at it. He was far more interested in Albania.

Simply using Thessalonica as the location of a Serbian government-in-exile wouldn't give it a claim on the territory. That gives France, Poland and several other states claim to London. And since the Serbians established their government in Corfu, wouldn't letting them have a claim to Thessalonica be no worse? Corfu is pretty strategically important in its own right.

I also notice you didn't actually provide a source for those claims about Thessalonica.
 
I will provide later. It was in a book and I am searching in the internet to find the source that was used in the book.

Anyway, we can agree that we disagree.
 
I am not sure (and find it very unlikely) if the Yugoslavian claim on Thessalonike had anything to do with having the remains of the serbian army in Greece (as you said they were stationed in Corfu anyway). However i too have heard that Yugoslavia did want to incorporate Thessalonike, and before it Austria-Hungary wanted the same (as some sort of "free city", in reality part of Austrian controlled area). Along with Bulgaria of course. The city was easily the second most important in the Balkans (after Constantinople). To some degree it still is among the outmost important ones, but i am not sure if by now it is in the first three to be honest :(
 
The French were pulling out regardless. Constantine's return merely gave them a good excuse. They were already negotiating with Ataturk. Why would the people of Greece, who were very anti-war in general by this point, unite under Venizelos simply because the king didn't interfere with his plans for Megali Idea? It wasn't a universal ideal in Greece.
While it's true that the French - and British - had other things on their mind than just who was king in Greece when they were formulating their Turkish policy, it was still a very relevant concern. The Anglo-French antagonism with Greece that mounted between late 1920 and 1922 probably wouldn't have been nearly so bad with Venizelos and Alexandros still at the helm. And the war was a very close-run thing; the Republic's army was fairly small and its ammunition and logistics situation was pretty much just as bad as that of the Greek army during the Sakarya campaign.

It's not as though the Greeks and Turks proposed and the French and British disposed; Atatürk and his followers might reasonably have expected to pull out some kind of victory even if France hadn't switched sides, and Konstantinos and Papoulas had a shot at victory even though France did. Imagining the Greek army running a slightly different - probably less aggressive - campaign in 1921, and without the Turks receiving the benefit of France's volte-face...well, they probably had a better shot than they would've otherwise. Maybe. Either way, it would've been close.

Venizelos might have had better relations with the Allies (although from what I understand of Versailles the Big Three mostly thought he was annoying), but it's really important to note just how uneven his support at home was. He won elections and plebiscites frequently, but also lost them - and tried to contravene the decisions implicit in these often enough that labeling him as 'democratic' and the likes of Konstantinos as 'monarchist' is painfully inaccurate. His backing in the army was similarly uneven; he had embarrassingly few supporters in uniform in 1916-17, meaning his breakaway Thessalonikan state rested on Allied bayonets, not Greek ones. He had more supporters there in 1920, but not enough to make up for the popularity of Konstantinos as an alternative option. What that usually meant on the ground is that he had just as many die-hard enemies as die-hard backers. And that meant a legacy of divisiveness for which he and his policies are at least partly at fault.

I think that he is a big beneficiary of nostalgia among Greeks, especially for the Great Idea, and that he gets an undue amount of credit for his republicanism and for his political enemies' spectacular failures while rarely being held accountable for his own spectacular failures.

My own favorite Greek is probably Seleukos I but that is neither here nor there
 
I reckon Caratheodory is a good option
 
While it's true that the French - and British - had other things on their mind than just who was king in Greece when they were formulating their Turkish policy, it was still a very relevant concern. The Anglo-French antagonism with Greece that mounted between late 1920 and 1922 probably wouldn't have been nearly so bad with Venizelos and Alexandros still at the helm. And the war was a very close-run thing; the Republic's army was fairly small and its ammunition and logistics situation was pretty much just as bad as that of the Greek army during the Sakarya campaign.

It's not as though the Greeks and Turks proposed and the French and British disposed; Atatürk and his followers might reasonably have expected to pull out some kind of victory even if France hadn't switched sides, and Konstantinos and Papoulas had a shot at victory even though France did. Imagining the Greek army running a slightly different - probably less aggressive - campaign in 1921, and without the Turks receiving the benefit of France's volte-face...well, they probably had a better shot than they would've otherwise. Maybe. Either way, it would've been close.

Venizelos might have had better relations with the Allies (although from what I understand of Versailles the Big Three mostly thought he was annoying), but it's really important to note just how uneven his support at home was. He won elections and plebiscites frequently, but also lost them - and tried to contravene the decisions implicit in these often enough that labeling him as 'democratic' and the likes of Konstantinos as 'monarchist' is painfully inaccurate. His backing in the army was similarly uneven; he had embarrassingly few supporters in uniform in 1916-17, meaning his breakaway Thessalonikan state rested on Allied bayonets, not Greek ones. He had more supporters there in 1920, but not enough to make up for the popularity of Konstantinos as an alternative option. What that usually meant on the ground is that he had just as many die-hard enemies as die-hard backers. And that meant a legacy of divisiveness for which he and his policies are at least partly at fault.

I think that he is a big beneficiary of nostalgia among Greeks, especially for the Great Idea, and that he gets an undue amount of credit for his republicanism and for his political enemies' spectacular failures while rarely being held accountable for his own spectacular failures.

My own favorite Greek is probably Seleukos I but that is neither here nor there
I was under the impression the withdrawal of the French essentially doomed the Greek expedition. Thanks for that.
 
I'm going to go with Alexandros Schinas. He shot the king dead; can't see what more you'd want from a man.
 
He was a psychopath who shot dead the sane King George to replace him with the insane King Constantine. So no. He was an idiot who destroyed Greece.
 
Some say that he was a German agent who was payed to kill the pro-British King George I and replace him with his son, the Pro-German King Constantine.
 
He was a psychopath who shot dead the sane King George to replace him with the insane King Constantine. So no. He was an idiot who destroyed Greece.
Well, no, he put a bullet through one fool who fancied himself others men's lord. If that can destroy a country, then clearly Georgey wasn't the only fool Greece had to offer.
 
King George I was surely not a fool and he was by far a better King than the insane tyrrant (Constantine). I cannot understand your point.
 
Anyone who thinks they can strut around acting as if they have a right to tell other people what to do and not expect, and deserve, a bullet in the chest is a fool in my book.
 
The assassination of King George I led to the Minor Asia destruction. Had he not die, he would have followed Venizelos advise and joined the Allies, the National Schism would have never happend, Greece would not be divided and our allies would not have a pretext not to help us.
 
Sounds to me like the Greeks ruined their own country, there, not Schinas. All he did was demonstrate, in dramatically effective terms, how ridiculous a system of government it must be if the death of one man, and a man of no exceptional wit or talent, can make the difference between prosperity and disaster.
 
I really cannot understand your point. It must be one of your many anti-hellenic racist posts I guess.
 
Well, it is a bit extreme to argue that Schinas was in reality some intellectual who tried to present anything meaningful with his murder...

@Christos: I think TF is just philo-anarchic himself, that is why he posts that stuff ;)
 
Well, it is a bit extreme to argue that Schinas was in reality some intellectual who tried to present anything meaningful with his murder...
I don't pretend that the execution was an intellectual exercise. I don't think that it's even justified on any such level. Its justification lies in its character as an act of real social revolt. I'm merely saying, if one "idiot" can send your entire political project spiralling of into disaster with nothing but a single well-placed bullet, then it was an ill-founded project to begin with, and not one that our dear, brave "idiot" should have felt any obligation to respect.

I really cannot understand your point. It must be one of your many anti-hellenic racist posts I guess.
I'm not the one who thinks that Greeks are incapable of running their own lives without a man in a funny hat making sure they do it properly.
 
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