What makes Deity difficult?

[gavenkoa]

I checked out http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php?title=Civ4HandicapInfo and while some handicaps are the same between IMM & DEITY:

<iHealthBonus>2</iHealthBonus>
<iHappyBonus>4</iHappyBonus>
<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>50</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
<iAIUnitUpgradePercent>50</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>

playing DEITY is significantly hard, especially regarding keeping tech parity.

I checked the difference in the XML file:

IMMORTAL => DEITY
iUnitCostPercent:  90 => 100
iAIUnitCostPercent: 80 => 60
iResearchPercent: 125 => 130
iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent: 95 => 100
iNoTechTradeModifier: 30 => 20
iAIPerEraModifier: -4 => -5
iAIWarWearinessPercent: 60 => 50
iAIGrowthPercent: 85 => 80
iAITrainPercent: 80 => 60
iAIConstructPercent: 80 => 60
iAICreatePercent: 80 => 60
iAICivicUpkeepPercent: 80 => 60
iAIUnitCostPercent: 80 => 60

Besides 2 settlers (and snowball effect) I see cost reductions 80 => 60 in unit / building costs and upkeep for AI.

I don't regard 2 settlers as a significant downside, in the recent attempt I am able to achieve tech parity at around T100 but then with Alphabet and Currency AIs just sky rocket and I cannot participate in the tech trade unless I extremely carefully selects tech to research or bulb (basically perform different tricks t stay relevant).

I bother what makes me from a tech lead at IMM to outsider at DEITY, which handicaps play significant role?

 

[AcaMetis]

I would guess the second settler makes the bigger difference, but why guess? Demigod, the unofficial difficulty level that got introduced to NC maps as a bridge between Immortal and Deity a while back, is an otherwise standard Deity save where AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units. Play a few maps on both difficulties and see how much of a difference that second settler actually makes. Or add Deity starting units to the Immortal save and give that a spin, I set up NC maps to allow people to easily do things like that if they so wish.

 

[Fish Man]

I checked out http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php?title=Civ4HandicapInfo and while some handicaps are the same between IMM & DEITY:

<iHealthBonus>2</iHealthBonus>
<iHappyBonus>4</iHappyBonus>
<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>50</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
<iAIUnitUpgradePercent>50</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>

playing DEITY is significantly hard, especially regarding keeping tech parity.

I checked the difference in the XML file:

IMMORTAL => DEITY
iUnitCostPercent:  90 => 100
iAIUnitCostPercent: 80 => 60
iResearchPercent: 125 => 130
iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent: 95 => 100
iNoTechTradeModifier: 30 => 20
iAIPerEraModifier: -4 => -5
iAIWarWearinessPercent: 60 => 50
iAIGrowthPercent: 85 => 80
iAITrainPercent: 80 => 60
iAIConstructPercent: 80 => 60
iAICreatePercent: 80 => 60
iAICivicUpkeepPercent: 80 => 60
iAIUnitCostPercent: 80 => 60

Besides 2 settlers (and snowball effect) I see cost reductions 80 => 60 in unit / building costs and upkeep for AI.

I don't regard 2 settlers as a significant downside, in the recent attempt I am able to achieve tech parity at around T100 but then with Alphabet and Currency AIs just sky rocket and I cannot participate in the tech trade unless I extremely carefully selects tech to research or bulb (basically perform different tricks t stay relevant).

I bother what makes me from a tech lead at IMM to outsider at DEITY, which handicaps play significant role?

This line:

iAIPerEraModifier: -4 => -5

This means that, besides the ridiculously decreased costs of everything for the AI at the start (60% of the player, compared to 80% on imm), AIs get a further 5% additive (I think) reduction every era they advance. This means that by the modern era, EVERY SINGLE THING is 35% cost for the AI compared to the human player. Techs, units, buidlings, all of it. To have AI civs essentially build and research 2-3 times as fast as a human player is such a gamebreaking advantage that they become near-unstoppable or unstoppable outright once they reach that point.

 

[Fippy]

Mostly the starting units & techs, they can settle 2 cities and improve everything quicker. They also have reduced time on workers (i think something like 3t for a farm..).
I actually tested this years ago, removed their settler & worker and pressed end turns. They did badly and nobody would have to fear them (of those who play regular deity).

 

[Pangaea]

I'd say it's the big production, growth and research bonuses all across the board. As you see from the XMLs, there is a significant difference between immortal and deity. Fippy says it's the starting settler that is the bigger factor, but in my experience at least, it's possible to keep track with the AI for a while, but then those huge bonuses really kick in, with the per era modifier making it even worse, and it becomes impossible to keep up with a big AI. The AIs get off to a strong start due to the extra settler and worker(s?), but to me it's not really the early stage of the game that is most difficult. We can sort of catch up to that if the early game is good by the human, but as time wears on, it becomes more and more difficult.

 

[drewisfat]

Starting units. Otherwise AI can be stock warrior rushed up to EMP and stock chariot rushed up to IMM with decent odds. You can autopilot your way to liberalism + cuirs or cannons and crush the AI on any level -- IF you reach ~6 cities. And that's where the deity difficulty comes in. The extra settler means they can settle in your face before you've built a unit, and they're getting their third city earlier than they get their second city on IMM. Sure you can lose to barbs, but I generally *don't* lose to barbs when isolated. This is bizarre -- there's much more barbs to bust/kill when isolated. Barbs game over you when you're pressured to rush a city at the expense of defenders/busters. Other way to lose is when you get Dowed on before you're prepared or had a chance to manipulate diplo. This happens much earlier on deity, because the AI runs out of land to settle and you become a land target earlier.

I think the ability to keep up better with the AI technologically in the earlier game than the later game is more an artifact of beelining. The AI is going to randomly tech everything while you focus on the key areas - and on the techs used for trade bait. You can feel ahead or even with the AI commerce-wise when you're the first to Aesth, but the AI actually has 30% more beakers researched than you, just most of it is in the religious techs you don't care about. As the game progresses and you're forced to backfill more, that 30% beakers researched advantage can mean you're unable to get to any technology first, and then all of a sudden you feel hopelessly behind. I think the increasing tech bonuses by age mostly just offsets the otherwise exponential negative of how poor the AI is at actually running the economy. It plays like a Noble player, building and improving all the things.

 

[Snowbird]

I've tried immortal with deity units (second settler, etc). It was very tough. Barbarian pressure does a thing too.

 

[Major Tom]

Another thing is that their foodbin is well filled turn zero. Think extra hammers too as they can get a workboat in one turn.

Will just mention that there is an interesting mod called Advanced Civ by @f1rpo .
Among other things there’s an option to give AI points to spend on whatever they like on units, tech etc instead of the usual extra stuff. More fair across AI as they have only their initial two starting techs (and settler, warrior). The usual extra stuff they get is worth around 750 points. Give them for example 500 for an easier ride if you like.

 

[krikav]

I tend to think that what play the largest role is the starting units (and techs).
The extra settler is what triggers the barbarians earlier which is a huge increase in difficulty on some maps.

The extra settler also wastly increases the odds of the player being squeezed in with too little land.
The AIs to move through the natural game progression faster on deity, so the pressure to catch up and gain a significant land advantage is on right from the start.
If you are first squeezed in with 3 cities, then you need to do some construction attack and then recover and prepare for the next step which can come later... You often lose alot of time if you start from a squeezed position.

Sure, that they get cheaper buildings/units later on too adds more difficulty, but I don't see this as the most significant factor.
Doing some cannon+rifle attack->ceasefire->attack->ceasefire push where you slowly grind down a behemoth is more costly and takes more time when the AI get abit cheaper units, but it's a difference in scale, not in kind.


The added upkeep that @BornInCantaloup mentions I think play a large role too. You are forced to squeeze through some commerce bottlenecks and can't just focus on hammers/food 100% which you can get away with on many other difficulties.
If you delay TW/Pottery/Alpha/Currency for too long on deity, you risk falling behind so much that there is simply no hope to recover, and if this is paired with a failed (or simly not successfull enough) military push which has not gained you a sizable chunk of land, well then it's often GG.


I love these balancing acts and it's a large part why I enjoy deity. It's also why I enjoy playing isolation maps alot (iso maps hold the greatest commerce bottleneck of all imho). You can't just force your will upon the map and sprawl, you need to balance.

 

[civac]

Deity barbs and maintenance cost (you pay upkeep for your 5th unit?) put the squeeze on the player aside from the AI. I have often seen Lain research archery early to stay safe. Archery is economically useless and archers are terrible anti-barb units. Similarly, people here have advised going pottery before BW to keep the economy alive on certain maps which is also very weak from a rexxing perspective.

The AI bonuses seem to be worst in the early game and in the late game with their accelerating cost decreases. Between that there is a chance to catch up. AI expansion is incredibly inefficient after their first two cities and they seem to kill their economy to an extent while rexxing similar to the player.

 

[Henrik75]

Pretty much, Krikav nailed it.
Free 2nd settler starts a snowball that starts rolling 25 turns earlier.
Immortal AI sometimes sit at size 1 for 20 turns building a settler. Deity AI get it for free, and can build another worker and settler in the time the IMM ai gets that 2nd settler.
Earlier barbarians is brutal, and triggers as a result of the above,

Wars are also extremely brutal, ANY deity AI can pump out a sufficient amount of units to punish any unprepared human. They initially have a 40% discount, for EVERY unit and building from the beginning, increasing every era by an additional 4% orso. If you take 4 turns to get to their city, they can stuff up to 20 units in there which is why cannons or mass trebs are extremely efficient for human players to use against the AI. They also will not capitulate easily either compared to immortal, because of their insane growth, technology, city level, and probably their land area and city count; they will have a MUCH higher score than you for a while, until you grind them down to less than half of your city count. And as a result of their unit spam in absurd levels, they will think their military power is fine so they will keep fighting.

They also pay half the immortal AI to upgrade units, and less maintenance so they can freely expand without ever bankrupting themselves, unless they have literally zero commerce.

One last thing would be the starting techs. I've seen willem, who's an amazing techer, not research wheel on immortal until 1000bc and put himself on strike. Deity AI will ALWAYS start with the wheel, giving them near instant city connections and providing enough commerce to pay off their heavily reduced city maintence.

It's a massive difference, everything is so much faster, it's like you injected steroids into the AI on turn 1 when you play deity.

EDIT: Their cities also grow 40% faster and can whip things 40% cheaper, so slavery is insane for the AI. One thing they do struggle with similar to any human player is happiness. Do not give them your gold or gems for 4 gold per turn if they are a threat to your game.

 

[Snowygerry]

(...)
The extra settler is what triggers the barbarians earlier which is a huge increase in difficulty on some maps.

How does this work exactly ?

Does it also work on lower levels - delaying my second settler would also delay barbs then ?

 

[civac]

Barbs get more aggressive at (total cities) > 2 * (player count) and (total cities) > 3 * (player count) . After the former threshold they enter borders if they can pillage an improvement on the next turn or reach a city immediately. After the latter threshold they enter borders if they can pillage an improvement within two turns or reach a city on the next turn.

That's only part of it though. On deity the era of animals is extremely short so human barbs appear much faster. Also more barbs units spawn in general.

 

[gavenkoa]

Barbarians are the variable that make Deity so hard

Oh, I forgot about this one. The last map didn't require it... You actually gamble with Axes / Chariot from Copper / Horses and if you haven't had luck you detour for Archery...

Once I tried Worker => Barracks for +25% forest defense to avoid Hunting / Archery path. Worked well on Deity with lots of forest and forests on hills. Warriors on forest hills could withstand even Spears with 2 promotions... Bare Warrior is useless against an Archer.. ((

 

[Fippy]

There are many interesting barb mechanics on deity.
They are attracted to empty cities, workers standing close etc.
If a barb cities plops up somewhere, they get less aggressive and stay around there often. Those cities also spawnbust areas, so sometimes it's good if they appear

Keeping barb warriors alive can be good, they also spawnbust.
Every turn and move counts when dealing with them, with less than optimal units.

 

[gavenkoa]

Those cities also spawnbust areas, so sometimes it's good if they appear

What I don't like about them: they are an easy target for AIs.

I managed to successfully exploit this: when AIs head to a barb city I send a few Warriors: when AI attack fails I can capture a city with weak units... As a downside I have to put attention on AI movements each turn...

 

[Fish Man]

I tend to think that what play the largest role is the starting units (and techs).
The extra settler is what triggers the barbarians earlier which is a huge increase in difficulty on some maps.

The extra settler also wastly increases the odds of the player being squeezed in with too little land.
The AIs to move through the natural game progression faster on deity, so the pressure to catch up and gain a significant land advantage is on right from the start.
If you are first squeezed in with 3 cities, then you need to do some construction attack and then recover and prepare for the next step which can come later... You often lose alot of time if you start from a squeezed position.

Sure, that they get cheaper buildings/units later on too adds more difficulty, but I don't see this as the most significant factor.
Doing some cannon+rifle attack->ceasefire->attack->ceasefire push where you slowly grind down a behemoth is more costly and takes more time when the AI get abit cheaper units, but it's a difference in scale, not in kind.


The added upkeep that @BornInCantaloup mentions I think play a large role too. You are forced to squeeze through some commerce bottlenecks and can't just focus on hammers/food 100% which you can get away with on many other difficulties.
If you delay TW/Pottery/Alpha/Currency for too long on deity, you risk falling behind so much that there is simply no hope to recover, and if this is paired with a failed (or simly not successfull enough) military push which has not gained you a sizable chunk of land, well then it's often GG.


I love these balancing acts and it's a large part why I enjoy deity. It's also why I enjoy playing isolation maps alot (iso maps hold the greatest commerce bottleneck of all imho). You can't just force your will upon the map and sprawl, you need to balance.

From my point of view the "big bonuses" the AI gets are tough but never insurmountable. You can grind down anything pre-rifles technically, with elephants and trebs or something. And throw enough cannons to take care of up to infantry/artillery/machine guns.

"Doing some cannon+rifle attack->ceasefire->attack->ceasefire push where you slowly grind down a behemoth is more costly and takes more time when the AI get abit cheaper units, but it's a difference in scale, not in kind."

The problem is not the difficulty of the war itself but the indirect effects of it. The faster tech pace at the end of the game makes it so you're always, always "against the clock" to finish sometime before t300 or even t250 some maps. When I'm doing an iso rifle-cannon war my concern is usually not "can I win the first war", but "can I catch up to Egypt and Incas who are on assembly line 1350AD and will only get faster from there" - and here the reduced costs for AI are devastating in all regards. Easily spammable units slow my military progress so I can't quickly finish conquering and consolidate to catch up; meanwhile, runaway teching by the leaders makes it so I have to finish conquering fast.

 

[gavenkoa]

Easily spammable units slow my military progress so I can't quickly finish conquering and consolidate to catch up

Indirectly you are saying that there is a small window for opportunities you get from your research path strategy.

I wonder if Marathon or other speeds fix the problem...

 

[Anysense]

Marathon makes war considerably more powerful tool than it is on Normal speed. Warfare is where AI really sucks, so Marathon tends to give human player an edge. Free workers also give huge boost to early expansion. Deity/Marathon does not feel like Deity at all, more like Immortal; and with HoF start it is god mode, although it is still possible to lose if you do something suicidal.

 

[ArchGhost]

What makes Deity difficult?
playing DEITY is significantly hard, especially regarding keeping tech parity.

It is the settler and free units

The era boni, barb parameters, player penalties, AI handicaps etc. are all extrapolated and simply a step up from the lower difficulties. Some of these work together to make your life more of a living hell than alone by themselves (i.e. earlier barbs + tighter expenses makes an increased challenge all its own for the player) but the point stands that it's still just adjusted up from lower difficulties.


But a free settler + 2 archers to garrison the capitol and 2 archers to immediately escort a settling party +garrison it gives them 2 cities means their AI routine to either build garrison or escorts is already overridden. The free worker that can road right away will immediately start improvements, and likewise they won't build one as they already have it. They'll have a second city usually in ~3-5 turns, which is the requirement for them to start building another settler, which will come up due to unit weighting very soon, and will very rapidly start to expand pushing off of three cities from their unless they derp into wonder-whoring or have extenuating positional circumstances like being shut onto a peninsula or locked in a corner.

The AI essentially starts the game off in REX mode. They don't have to wait for workers and techs like the player, and just head off to the races.

Everything else that makes the AI speedier than you (build cost handicaps, lack of expense restrictions, etc) simply compounds off of this massive headstart.

I bother what makes me from a tech lead at IMM to outsider at DEITY, which handicaps play significant role?

The AI's incremental handicap to research per era. On Deity it's 5%. Every era the AI advances it gains either -5% cost or +5% beakers (not sure which mechanic it actually is) and it stacks. Every Deity AI in the game gets it, and even AIs that are not in as advanced eras benefit from the mechanic that cheapens techs by some % for each player in the game that already knows it.

The overall result is the AIs tech faster and faster the longer the game goes and the more advanced they become, in a feedback loop. The faster one goes, they faster they all go by proxy (even if they aren't allowed to trade with each other, due to the tech discount rule). Tech pace is very rapid in later turns consequently, and you'll see things like 2-3 turn tech times on Fusion from big AIs and still respectable times on other late era techs even from 5-6 city little weenie AIs.