What makes Deity difficult?

[Fish Man]

I tend to think that what play the largest role is the starting units (and techs).
The extra settler is what triggers the barbarians earlier which is a huge increase in difficulty on some maps.

The extra settler also wastly increases the odds of the player being squeezed in with too little land.
The AIs to move through the natural game progression faster on deity, so the pressure to catch up and gain a significant land advantage is on right from the start.
If you are first squeezed in with 3 cities, then you need to do some construction attack and then recover and prepare for the next step which can come later... You often lose alot of time if you start from a squeezed position.

Sure, that they get cheaper buildings/units later on too adds more difficulty, but I don't see this as the most significant factor.
Doing some cannon+rifle attack->ceasefire->attack->ceasefire push where you slowly grind down a behemoth is more costly and takes more time when the AI get abit cheaper units, but it's a difference in scale, not in kind.


The added upkeep that @BornInCantaloup mentions I think play a large role too. You are forced to squeeze through some commerce bottlenecks and can't just focus on hammers/food 100% which you can get away with on many other difficulties.
If you delay TW/Pottery/Alpha/Currency for too long on deity, you risk falling behind so much that there is simply no hope to recover, and if this is paired with a failed (or simly not successfull enough) military push which has not gained you a sizable chunk of land, well then it's often GG.


I love these balancing acts and it's a large part why I enjoy deity. It's also why I enjoy playing isolation maps alot (iso maps hold the greatest commerce bottleneck of all imho). You can't just force your will upon the map and sprawl, you need to balance.

From my point of view the "big bonuses" the AI gets are tough but never insurmountable. You can grind down anything pre-rifles technically, with elephants and trebs or something. And throw enough cannons to take care of up to infantry/artillery/machine guns.

"Doing some cannon+rifle attack->ceasefire->attack->ceasefire push where you slowly grind down a behemoth is more costly and takes more time when the AI get abit cheaper units, but it's a difference in scale, not in kind."

The problem is not the difficulty of the war itself but the indirect effects of it. The faster tech pace at the end of the game makes it so you're always, always "against the clock" to finish sometime before t300 or even t250 some maps. When I'm doing an iso rifle-cannon war my concern is usually not "can I win the first war", but "can I catch up to Egypt and Incas who are on assembly line 1350AD and will only get faster from there" - and here the reduced costs for AI are devastating in all regards. Easily spammable units slow my military progress so I can't quickly finish conquering and consolidate to catch up; meanwhile, runaway teching by the leaders makes it so I have to finish conquering fast.

 

[gavenkoa]

Easily spammable units slow my military progress so I can't quickly finish conquering and consolidate to catch up

Indirectly you are saying that there is a small window for opportunities you get from your research path strategy.

I wonder if Marathon or other speeds fix the problem...

 

[Anysense]

Marathon makes war considerably more powerful tool than it is on Normal speed. Warfare is where AI really sucks, so Marathon tends to give human player an edge. Free workers also give huge boost to early expansion. Deity/Marathon does not feel like Deity at all, more like Immortal; and with HoF start it is god mode, although it is still possible to lose if you do something suicidal.

 

[ArchGhost]

What makes Deity difficult?
playing DEITY is significantly hard, especially regarding keeping tech parity.

It is the settler and free units

The era boni, barb parameters, player penalties, AI handicaps etc. are all extrapolated and simply a step up from the lower difficulties. Some of these work together to make your life more of a living hell than alone by themselves (i.e. earlier barbs + tighter expenses makes an increased challenge all its own for the player) but the point stands that it's still just adjusted up from lower difficulties.


But a free settler + 2 archers to garrison the capitol and 2 archers to immediately escort a settling party +garrison it gives them 2 cities means their AI routine to either build garrison or escorts is already overridden. The free worker that can road right away will immediately start improvements, and likewise they won't build one as they already have it. They'll have a second city usually in ~3-5 turns, which is the requirement for them to start building another settler, which will come up due to unit weighting very soon, and will very rapidly start to expand pushing off of three cities from their unless they derp into wonder-whoring or have extenuating positional circumstances like being shut onto a peninsula or locked in a corner.

The AI essentially starts the game off in REX mode. They don't have to wait for workers and techs like the player, and just head off to the races.

Everything else that makes the AI speedier than you (build cost handicaps, lack of expense restrictions, etc) simply compounds off of this massive headstart.

I bother what makes me from a tech lead at IMM to outsider at DEITY, which handicaps play significant role?

The AI's incremental handicap to research per era. On Deity it's 5%. Every era the AI advances it gains either -5% cost or +5% beakers (not sure which mechanic it actually is) and it stacks. Every Deity AI in the game gets it, and even AIs that are not in as advanced eras benefit from the mechanic that cheapens techs by some % for each player in the game that already knows it.

The overall result is the AIs tech faster and faster the longer the game goes and the more advanced they become, in a feedback loop. The faster one goes, they faster they all go by proxy (even if they aren't allowed to trade with each other, due to the tech discount rule). Tech pace is very rapid in later turns consequently, and you'll see things like 2-3 turn tech times on Fusion from big AIs and still respectable times on other late era techs even from 5-6 city little weenie AIs.

 

[Henrik75]

Something I wanted to share of the joys of deity.

So I noticed hannibal adopting Hereditary rule 2200BC

Then I saw he built the Oracle at 1880BC and I thought... no way....

A disgustingly rich capital at turn 60

 

[Pangaea]

Oooof! Wonder how many warriors it would take to rush him down.

 

[civac]

You can also see the AI not chopping its forests. The capital doesn't even have 11 improved tiles.

 

[konata_LS]

OMG Deity is indeed scary 1760BC Feudalism with capital double Gold, what next? 500BC Paper, 1AD Lib, 500AD Apollo and 1000AD spaceship launch?...

 

[Pangaea]

1AD Lib

I've seen Deity AIs get Lib in around 200AD, iirc. Sometimes they are even crazier than normal

 

[Henrik75]

He had civil service at 1100BC. If that's not scary idk what is.

 

[Fish Man]

He had civil service at 1100BC. If that's not scary idk what is.

Pretty sure Hannibal got civil service earlier, and 275 BC lib, on this map! Granted, it was likely cooked, but still - I beat it (with generous reloads, of course), after Lain took his shot.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/charlyshadow.647081/page-2#post-15485738

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...p-for-me-to-play.620140/page-30#post-15458138

 

[Pangaea]

He had civil service at 1100BC. If that's not scary idk what is.

Beware the bureaucrats!

No, seriously, that is very scary. Did you record the game?

 

[konata_LS]

@Pangaea
That new video would add some new stories to your thread .

By the way, Henrik has played several times as Hatty. If you like, you may want to watch his Deity Hatty games (Deity 23, IIRC). It'll give you some hints about your current shadow game.

@Fish Man
Whaaaat? 275BC lib?...

 

[Anysense]

Astonishing, what a Deity AI can build in a size 1 city which does not even have any tile to work.

Spoiler :

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

My deity games have become easier ever since I started giving cities back to capitulated vassals and nurturing colonies seriously.

 

[sampsa]

Looking at the latest Henrik immortal game it becomes pretty obvious how much tech trading favors the human player. Also due to NTT, the value of vassals is rather low. On standard settings you can just let decently strong vassals do a big chunk of your teching, especially on deity.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

My experience is that NTT immortal can feel harder but it’s actually just longer. The risk of losing is negligible. You’re just required to go deeper into the tech tree to win the game. I actually think it’s easier in the sense that the risk of losing is reduced. The only way you can have a really hard immortal game is when the other continent gets too far ahead in tech for you to be able to join in the tech trading fun (although this is admittedly rare).

On NTT you can just target the weakest civ, then the next weakest etc until you’ve got so much land that you can overwhelm even a more advanced immortal AI or reach domination without ever fighting them because, as stated, vassals are pretty useless so you may as well wipe an AI out unless there’s another target in need of your urgent attention. From the bit of the Henrik game I watched it seemed pretty clear he was going to win (and I assume he did). It was just going to be the sort of grind he wasn’t used to on immortal.

I’ve never played NTT deity so I can’t comment beyond agreeing that in a normal tech trading game liberating cities and benefiting from deity AI bonuses through your vassals often seems more effective than keeping the city for yourself. Unfortunately, returning things I’ve taken doesn’t come naturally to me.

 

[Fippy]

NTT feels more challenging, but also creates less runaway AIs.
On fractal maps (or any other where players cannot meet every AI without Optics) it's pretty obvious that NTT helps

 

[Fippy]

Good economic leaders also become better with NTT, and bad leaders more of a burden.
I would argue that playing Lizzy i.e. is even easier with NTT on.

 

[Gwaja]

From my personal experience, it is usually being boxed in and being forced to settle wherever possible, most often not very optimal. I would assume that has a lot to do with the 2nd settler the AI get. Given enough space to breathe, bit of practice, experience, and self control usually keep you away from breaking your economy. Many times you feel as though you have to break out by warring to give yourself some room, but that war can also destroy your economy and slip you further behind in tech as well.