what reasons do the 3 major religious books give on...

@B3K: He means the sociological origins of the Jewish prohibition, that it was to maintain the population just as the sociological explanation of not eating pork was to prevent trichinosis. Although even looking at it from a secular perspective I don't really buy most of these explanations.

@X999: Same sex attraction is different from same sex intercourse, they have often been different things. or did you think only gay people go to prison?
 
The sociological origin of homosexuality is extremely recent, past the 1900s. There simply wasn't a concept of a man who solely lusts after men in society before that.

I was not referring to the origins of the concept of delineating between homosexuals vs. heterosexuals, I'm talking about acts of sexual congress between males which, unless I've grossly misread Classical Greek pottery, most definitely did exist before the 1900's.
 
Im not even referring to wether it was immoral or even an issue in ancient indian society.

I just find it an oversight that nothing about man on man sex was mentioned in anyway according to aneeshm.
 
Ok so the word homosexuality is a modern concept but having sex with your gender isnt?

What did you think i meant by homosexuality?

In today's terms, a "homosexual" is not someone who has sex with only with the same sex. A homosexual is one in which the object of sexual attraction is the same sex. There's a huge difference between these two definitions - namely, it implies that homosexuality is not necessarily a choice. And that is the modern concept.

I was not referring to the origins of the concept of delineating between homosexuals vs. heterosexuals, I'm talking about acts of sexual congress between males which, unless I've grossly misread Classical Greek pottery, most definitely did exist before the 1900's.
Yeah, but pedestary was a lot more like a relationship between one in power and one not, (adults and children, for example, or more likely, teacher and studuent) rather than just homosexual relations.
 
Well, he mentioned the whole "marriage=sex" but I have found that virtually all ancient societies, even the ones that were big on male/male sex, still thought of marriage as between genders. So I would assume that unless they said otherwise, the above wouldn't apply to homosexual acts.
 
In today's terms, a "homosexual" is not someone who has sex with only with the same sex. A homosexual is one in which the object of sexual attraction is the same sex. There's a huge difference between these two definitions - namely, it implies that homosexuality is not necessarily a choice. And that is the modern concept.

Ok well see my above quote, i meant nothing on the morality or the specifics of it.

Just why gay sex was not mentioned. It was mentioned in many other ancient cultures. The mesopotamians, greeks, hebrews, and possibly the egyptians (dont know about them) all mentioned them.
 
So many ignorant Christians here, saying that masterbation is not forbidden in the Bible when its right there in chapter 5 of Matthew by the words of Jesus. Furthermore, when you masterbate you have lustful thoughts, which is also forbidden by Jesus. So its quite clearly forbidden by the Bible.
 
You're referring to this?

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
I don't see a ban on masturbation there, but I do see a ban on the Babe Thread. :p And that same chapter puts you in danger of hellfire for your post. (Verse 22.)
 
Erik: I liked that bit about adultery and the symbolism between the Church and Christ. I've never seen that before.
 
Well I do know that in the bible there is something like this:
Do not spill you'r seed in vain

Don't remember where or the exact qoute. But this was reffereing to "retreating" intercourse (is that the right word?), but it was expanded to include masterbution.
 
nivi, are you thinking of the story of Onan?


Erik: I liked that bit about adultery and the symbolism between the Church and Christ. I've never seen that before.
The book of Hosea is good reference on this. Marriage on Earth is, as I remember my pastor explaining it, an image or an echo of God's covenant, the way man is created in God's image.

Chapter 1

1 The word of the LORD that came to Hosea son of Beeri during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and during the reign of Jeroboam son of Jehoash king of Israel:
Hosea's Wife and Children
2 When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him, "Go, take to yourself an adulterous wife and children of unfaithfulness, because the land is guilty of the vilest adultery in departing from the LORD." 3 So he married Gomer daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.

<skip ahead>

Chapter 3

1 The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."
 
homosexuality, masterbation, pre-marital sex, sado-maso and other "filthy" sexual acts?
What reasons do the 3 major religious books (Talmud, Qu'ran, Bibble) give that make homosexuality, masterbation, pre-marital sex such bad things?
Keep it intelligent plz.

I haven't seen the Islamic view posted or clarified by anyone, so here's my attempt to answer the poster's questions:

Islamic View

Let's address each topic individually:

Homosexuality

The Qur'an states that it is normal for some people to have homosexual thoughts and be moved by the beauty of a person of the same sex. What a person should not do is act on these urges and fantasies.

Again, it's like any other forbidden thing in Islam, adultery, consumption of alcohol, gambling. It's not seen the same way in the Qur'an that it's seen by Christians (ie: the thoughts are permissible but carrying them out is not), although some Muslims may still be made very uncomfortable by the topic.

In regards to punishment, a homosexual act is treated the same way that adultery is treated, since one cannot be married to a person of the same sex (and therefore to do such a thing must be unfaithful to his wife or to engage in sexual intercourse while unmarried, also prohibited).

If two men for instance want to be together, and they express their affection for one another in private, as to not encourage such action (and therefore disobedience) among other members of the Muslim community, then they can do that.

The only way to be punished for homosexual behaviour is the same way one would be punished for adultery. There's deliberately a very high standard of proof set. One needs to be caught in the act by several people that can corroborate each other's testimonies, so you need several witnesses of the act itself.

Furthermore, there's nothing (that I've read) to say that a homosexual (one that engages in the act) is incapable of making it to paradise (and is doomed to hell). The Islamic understanding of judgement is that your good deeds and your bad deeds (including being disobedient) are compared when you stand "before God." Based upon these deeds, it is decided whether a person deserves to enter Paradise. God knows that no one is perfect, and it is within his power to forgive anyone he wants to, which is why he's called Ever-Merciful, Most-Compassionate and Most-Forgiving.

I even read somewhere (though I can't recall where) that in paradise, people will have access to both men and women partners (if they choose). Also, I recall that people will be able to drink wine (therefore, the prohibition on alcohol is also lifted).

Islam and this "current life" is considered by Muslims to be a trial from God to test their piety, commitment and willingness to submit to God and his laws. Therefore, once in paradise, there's no longer a need to be tested, since you've clearly passed the test.

Adultery

From Wikipedia (accurate and concise description with references): According to Islam, adultery is a violation of a marital contract and one of the major sins. In Islam, adultery includes both pre-marital and extramarital sex. Fornication and adultery are both included in the Arabic word 'Zina'. As they belong primarily to the same category of crimes, entail the same social implications and have the same effects on the spiritual personality of a human being, both, in principle, have been given the same status by the Qur'an.

"Do not go near to adultery. Surely it is a shameful deed and evil, opening roads (to other evils)" (Quran 17:32).

"Say, 'Verily, my Lord has prohibited the shameful deeds, be it open or secret, sins and trespasses against the truth and reason"' (Quran 7:33).

"Women impure are for men impure, and men impure are for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity." (Quran 24:26)

Conditions (apply also to homosexual acts, since they are considered a form of adultery)

* The accused, before the accusation, must be known as a practising Muslim.
* The accused must possess common sense. The accused must not have been in an intoxicated state of mind while the act was committed.
* The accused must be an adult having well surpassed the age of puberty.
* The accused must have committed adultery of his/her own free will.
* There must be four male witnesses (or pieces of evidence) to support the accusation (of sexual penetration).

Additional fulfillment of the following requirements is necessary for an execution:

* The accused must be free and not a slave.
* The accused must be married (according to Islamic Law), and must enjoy normal sexual relations with his/her spouse (and therefore have a legitimate means of satisfying his/her sexual desires) prior to committing adultery.
* The accused (woman) must not be pregnant or be responsible for breast feeding a child.


The penalties for adultery (depending for instance if one is fornicating - ie: unmarried or does have a wife) include physical punishment, such as 100 lashes or possibly the penalty of death.

However, recall that there are a number of conditions that need to be met, that four witnesses are required, and each must corroborate the others' testimony and evidence such as Hearsay is inadmissible.

Masturbation

Also from Wikipedia: Istimna (&#1575;&#1587;&#1578;&#1605;&#1606;&#1575;&#1569;) is the Arabic term for masturbation. Masturbation may only be done in fear of committing adultery, nor is it preferred (either getting married and fasting is suggested as alternatives from hadith). It is totally forbidden in the Shi'a sect[citation needed], but the four Sunni schools of jurisprudence (known as Madhaahib - the Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki and Hambali schools of Fiqh) have differing stances on the issue[citation needed]. Some consider it forbidden in all cases[citation needed]. Some see it forbidden in certain cases but obligatory in others[citation needed]. Another view [attribution needed] is that it is Makruh but not expressly forbidden. Scholars of Islam do not approve of masturbation, except in extenuating circumstances. There is a statement in Quran "And those who guard their chastity, Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess,- for then, they are free from blame; But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are transgressors."

In Islam, sexual engagement outside of marriage (and outside of those whom the right-hand possesses) is a major sin, which cause the doer to be punished in this life and the Qiyama. Yet if one's desire is so overwhelming one might perform a greater wrong by having sex outside marriage, masturbation becomes permissible as a necessity but in that case it will be like eating the flesh of pig when no other food is available. So Quran says "And those who are not married should try to live in chastity, until God enriches them with His Grace" (Qur'an, 24:33)

Beliefs and practices vary, it is not, however, in any case a sin for which there is a prescribed punishment.


Sodomy

I'm not completely sure what other "dirty" sexual acts you're talking about, but I'm assuming your interested in at least sodomy.

Islam is a religion that places a high emphasis on cleanliness and hygiene. I'm not sure how much you or others know about the religion, but before every prayer, a person makes "Wudu" which is a spiritual act of purification. This involves washing the body to cleanse it before prayer (particularly the hands, arms up to the elbows, feet, nostrils, ears, face, and hair). Also if a man discharges semen, or a woman has her period, they have to undertake a more thorough cleaning of themselves (ie: like a bath/shower).

Therefore, the act of sodomy runs completely contrary to these values. It is officially prohibited by most Islamic sects (most importantly, the largest ones representing the vast majority of Muslims). Parts of the Qur'an talk about Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the sin of Lot's people.

People who do this are seen to be giving in to a universal temptation (such as thievery) and are punished accordingly. It is distinguished however whether a person makes "lesser liwat" with a woman or "greater liwat" with a man.

The punishment can be severe, including whiplashes or death.

Recall however, that like adultery, the burden of proof is high.


Regarding all of the acts described above (aside from masturbation), they are made difficult to prosecute and prove (possibly intentionally). In my opinion, this is because committing these acts privately does not have the same impact as committing them while the Muslim community is aware. In other words, if people know that such transgressions are occurring, they may be more likely to transgress themselves, and this is the key problem when such behaviour occurs and is prosecutable.

Even if such action can not be prosecuted, that does not mean that it isn't wrong. Recall that the Islamic notion of God, much like the Christian and Jewish notion is that he is "All-Aware" and therefore will know if a person exceeded the limits set in the Qur'an. It's like a person who steals and isn't caught. They may not have been found guilty of a crime, yet a crime was committed nonetheless.

It should also be noted that many of the things that are prohibited in the Qur'an are done so because their benefits are outweighed by their costs. Examples of such things are alcohol consumption, gambling and so on. Consider alcohol consumption. Some studies show that a very small amount of alcohol may have certain minor health benefits (though the majority of doctors would still caution a person against drinking solely for the gain of these potential benefits). Despite this, it is very uncommon for a person to consume alcohol purely for these "good reasons." Instead, we see widespread alcohol abuse problems, drunk driving, and even casual drinkers consuming far more than this "minimum" alcohol amount.

Furthermore, when it comes to gambling, it may be possible to earn a fortune through it. On the other hand, it's equally possible (or more likely in many cases) that a person will lose money by gambling (how else would casinos remain profitable ;)?) Therefore, people could gamble their livelihoods away, which has sometimes been the case and go from a position of affluence and wealth (or at least a reasonable amount that provides a good home and meets the needs of the family) to a position of shocking poverty.

I hope this was helpful for anyone curious about the Islamic point of view.
 
You're referring to this?

I don't see a ban on masturbation there, but I do see a ban on the Babe Thread. :p And that same chapter puts you in danger of hellfire for your post. (Verse 22.)

You don't see a ban on masterbation? What do you think the right hand is doing? In the context of lust and sexual immorality? I think its pretty obvious.

Touchè on verse 22 though, you nailed me on that one, hehe.
 
You don't see a ban on masturbation? What do you think the right hand is doing? In the context of lust and sexual immorality? I think its pretty obvious.
:cringe: That, sir, appears to be a double entendre that I didn't see until this moment. :wallbash: :facepalm:

(for those missing half the discussion, clicky here.)

More seriously. The exegesis at BibleGateway doesn't mention masturbation either. While you may have a point, I think that "the right hand" can be from the same expression as this passage from the next chapter:

2 So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
To me, this seems to indicate that "what the right hand is doing" can mean "what you are normally doing", since at that time, left-handedness was still considered unnatural/a curse/evil/whatever.

With no commentary mentioning masturbation, not the one linked above, not Matthew Henry, and not Clarke (note: I'm not trying to name-drop, these are just the first ones I found on Google), I remain doubtful as to the validity of your interpretation.

Edit: ....drifted a little off topic, haven't we?
 
So many ignorant Christians here, saying that masterbation is not forbidden in the Bible when its right there in chapter 5 of Matthew by the words of Jesus. Furthermore, when you masterbate you have lustful thoughts, which is also forbidden by Jesus. So its quite clearly forbidden by the Bible.
Lust and masturbation, are not synonymous. Neither necessarily involves the other, so it's possible to have one without the other. Simply because one is a sin doesn't mean the other is also.
 
Since reading Homie's post, I've been wondering if it's possible for humans to procreate through intercourse without a lustful thought. Does he mean that Christians should have test tube babies? Even so, how does one get a sperm sample without a lustful thought? Even sperm banks are stocked with porn to help the process.
 
I sometimes think that it would have been better if mankind had not been given the power of sexuality, since they obviously have such an incredibly difficult time dealing with it. Over time, it inevitably leads to a slow steady decline in mental health, to some degree (easy to see, from a removed perspective).

Animals must look at us and think, "Get it together, man! For crying out loud!"

Just can't figure out 'where to put it'. Perhaps it is a power that many simply cannot competently wield, over the course of a life time. Thus, just another road to ruin - that many find and follow.

But, this generation does have it more difficult - as they are literally confronted by seduction around nearly every corner as they walk through life.

Basically, what I'm saying is, it should not be so difficult to maintain a healthy mental state, and keep a proper perspective on what is appropriate vs. inappropriate. What is honorable, vs. dishonorable. But oh, there IS difficulty, isn't there. Serious difficulty.


"We don't need these laws. They don't apply anymore. We are free to persue our own will, as we please. We can rationalize our way into moralizing any act we so choose." :shake:
 
Just can't figure out 'where to put it'. Perhaps it is a power that many simply cannot competently wield, over the course of a life time. Thus, just another road to ruin - that many find and follow.

What do you mean by that? I haven't met anyone yet who 'doesn't know where to put it'
 
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