What should I do with great scientists?
- Thread starter austincm
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PreLynMax
Your Lord and Master
Give them to me and let me torture-- I mean "take care" of them.
Seriously, I would give it to your GP farm so you can spam GS in that town.
Seriously, I would give it to your GP farm so you can spam GS in that town.
In general, if your not bulbing something, the academy should go in your top science city - probably a Bureaucracy capital. If the GP farm produces more beakers, you could put it there but Bureau capital is usually best.
If you join it as a super specialist, I'd put it in the GP farm. Bulbing something useful along the way to Liberalism is often good, but I usually use the first one for an academy.
We may not be communicating. To me, a commerce town is a town that produces wealth as opposed to research. Often a Shrine City. Since wealth towns have money multipliers but generally don't produce many beakers I wouldn't put the Academy there. The Academy multiplies research.
Higher Game
National Socialist
The main uses are an academy for a bureaucracy capital and a bulb into education. Besides that, they make very good specialists when you run representation and have Oxford, being worth 30ish beakers a turn. Even the hammers are valuable for a high commerce city that needs multiplier buildings.
Besides the education bulb, though, great merchants are usually worth more because trade missions = $$$$$. Strong arguments can also be made for great spies and engineers.
Besides the education bulb, though, great merchants are usually worth more because trade missions = $$$$$. Strong arguments can also be made for great spies and engineers.
Settling a GS in a GP farm will not speed up GP production! (at least directly, the one hammer might help build some buildings or something...). First build an academy in a city with the most cottages and best cottage potential (often the capital, and if not, consider moving the palace there for the powerful bureaucracy civic). If you aren't going to bulb, settle all your scientists there, and build oxford. Occasionally build an academy in another city if it's producing a lot of science.
The first great general is often used for a super medic (promote to medic 3). I prefer to use mounted units, although it takes a little care to avoid getting them targeted. Otherwise settle them in the city that will produce the most units (heroic epic city if you have one).
The first great general is often used for a super medic (promote to medic 3). I prefer to use mounted units, although it takes a little care to avoid getting them targeted. Otherwise settle them in the city that will produce the most units (heroic epic city if you have one).
The first great general, whether in a war currently or not, is to create a Supermedic with the promos Combat I and Medic I, II and III. This unit can then go along with a stack, enabling very quick healing in enemy lands, just one or two turns. The Aztecs can sometimes combine this with Woodsman III, generating the ultimate Supermedic. Supermedics are extremely useful. So useful that you don't want to use it in combat and often won't be upgraded because it then might be selected for defense and be accidentally destroyed.
I usually settle other great generals in my military city, giving 2 XP's to every unit produced there. Under Representation, the settled GG also gives 3 beakers.
You asked about Bureaucracy. That's one of the best legal civics and almost every game is used. It gives 50% hammers and beakers to the capital BEFORE the other multipliers. A Bureaucracy Capital is usually heavily cottage so the multipliers (including the Academy) work on 150% of the normal value of a town. In most games people stay in Bureaucracy for a long time. In an OCC you switch into Bureaucracy and don't switch out.
Nick Carpathia
Unleash the HAARP
Nooo. Don't settle your great scientists into GP farms. GP farms tend to be hammer poor, they simply can't hammer multipliers.
A strong combination for most games is the bureaucracy/oxford supercapital with lots of cottages. It's fairly simple, fill your capital with cottages, use bureaucracy for a multiplier on your commerce, and use oxford for a second multiplier on your commerce. After that, settle your great people in your cities with the highest multipliers.
A strong combination for most games is the bureaucracy/oxford supercapital with lots of cottages. It's fairly simple, fill your capital with cottages, use bureaucracy for a multiplier on your commerce, and use oxford for a second multiplier on your commerce. After that, settle your great people in your cities with the highest multipliers.
PreLynMax
Your Lord and Master
Who says I use them to increase production? I use them to pump out more GS. Well, the first GS builds an Acadamy, then settle the others.
ywhtptgtfo
Emperor
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What? How does GS help pump out more GS's? GS's don't give GPP.
Even if the vote favored GS settled in GP farm, that would be still complete and utter nonsense (except in some rare cases of pure SE).
Although I really used to like medicIII a lot, a great general in your unit production center is so much better. It means +1 promo out of the gate regardless of traits and civics. Unlimited medicII for agg civs.
Although I really used to like medicIII a lot, a great general in your unit production center is so much better. It means +1 promo out of the gate regardless of traits and civics. Unlimited medicII for agg civs.
Celebithil
Warlord
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Settling should clearly be done in the city with best multipliers, that is, the (proposed) oxford university city. Depending on your strategy this may be the GP-farm (if you want lots of GSs, or run a low slider), or a cottaged city, or your capital (in bureaucracy).
As for the eternal debate settling vs. academy: If you settle in your Oxford university city (with say, library, university, observatory, and an academy (laboratory comes too late to be relevant) you get almost 30 beakers/turn in representation and almost 20/turn without representation. To beat this with an academy you need to produce 60, resp. 40, base beakers in a city. In a normal city this is hard to do (if slider is at 50% you need 120 resp 80 base commerce, which are 24, resp. 16, non-free speech towns (I know there are more sources of commerce, so in practice you need less towns, but this gives an idea of the scale of things). If you do settle GSs in a city reaching this threshold is easy though, hence you should also turn one in an academy in your Oxford city if you want to settle many GSs there.
Comparing with bulbing is hard, as that is all about timing. Thus there are no strict rules about "always bulb this" or "never bulb that", or something like that.
As for the eternal debate settling vs. academy: If you settle in your Oxford university city (with say, library, university, observatory, and an academy (laboratory comes too late to be relevant) you get almost 30 beakers/turn in representation and almost 20/turn without representation. To beat this with an academy you need to produce 60, resp. 40, base beakers in a city. In a normal city this is hard to do (if slider is at 50% you need 120 resp 80 base commerce, which are 24, resp. 16, non-free speech towns (I know there are more sources of commerce, so in practice you need less towns, but this gives an idea of the scale of things). If you do settle GSs in a city reaching this threshold is easy though, hence you should also turn one in an academy in your Oxford city if you want to settle many GSs there.
Comparing with bulbing is hard, as that is all about timing. Thus there are no strict rules about "always bulb this" or "never bulb that", or something like that.
Agree on first. Brain was out about settling GS in GP farm.
On the second I disagree completely. Medic III is great to get your injured units back into battle. But you only need one or two Supermedics - Medic III is useless as a general promo. MEDIC II? It's only use is getting a Supermedic to Medic III. If you have a Supermedic in your stack, Medic II is useless. Settling after creating 1or 2 Supermedics is good, but for an aggressive leader I'd just go up the Combat line in general.
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Can you expound on this point?
While settling the GG in your unit pump has a lot of merit. One cannot overlook that fact that the supermedic instantly unlocks HE. So I think it's situational really. I generally prefer the supermedic first since it is very valuable in battle. However, if you are warring a lot early and have a unit that actually survives to the 4th promo OR you are Charasmatic, then settling the GG may be better.
It's very situational.
I think the three most-common uses for early GS are...
-Build an academy in the capital, planning on running Bureaucracy once you get Civil Service. A very strong long-game play, which might take a while to start really paying off.
-Build an academy in a GP farm, planning on crashing your economy through expansion and relying on scientist specs. (plus the great library's free scientists?) to pull through. A good way to stagger through the next half-dozen techs until your economy recovers, but not as strong after that.
-Bulb a tech on the path to liberalism. Just about the only way to stay competitive with high-level AIs if you get a tough start, and a good way to get a decisive military tech lead if you have a good start or are on a lower level.
Late-game, I often use them for golden ages.
I think the three most-common uses for early GS are...
-Build an academy in the capital, planning on running Bureaucracy once you get Civil Service. A very strong long-game play, which might take a while to start really paying off.
-Build an academy in a GP farm, planning on crashing your economy through expansion and relying on scientist specs. (plus the great library's free scientists?) to pull through. A good way to stagger through the next half-dozen techs until your economy recovers, but not as strong after that.
-Bulb a tech on the path to liberalism. Just about the only way to stay competitive with high-level AIs if you get a tough start, and a good way to get a decisive military tech lead if you have a good start or are on a lower level.
Late-game, I often use them for golden ages.
Nick Carpathia
Unleash the HAARP
GP farms tend to have crappy multipliers unless you're doing the whole specialist economy shtick. Don't settle there, if you're going to settle, settle them in oxford capitals.
And really, specialists are overrated on lower difficulties. A scientist eats 2 food and shits 3 science. This means you need 2 grassland farms to feed a single scientist! It means you need 3 population and 3 happiness to generate 3 commerce, with no food surplus! You know what beats this? Lighthouse coasts! Each citizen generates 2 commerce, and they are food neutral.
Ah, but what if you have the mids. You know what also matches rep scientists? Lighthouse coasts as well!
So no, the appeal of the specialist economy are not the raw commerce, because you're better off working tiles. If you're going that route, at most, you want to use your specialists to eat up spare food so that your cities don't grow into unhappiness, but it's not like those pop points are worthless when you have slavery. No, instead, the appeal of specialists is in the great people points. I think it was Unconquered Sun who made the point that every single GPP was the equivalent of 40-50 beakers. You then turn those beakers into more beakers with promiscuous tech trading. This really works on Immortal-Diety, where the AI have enough of a tech rate boost that it's the only way to keep up and stay in the tech race.
Of course, the way the GPP system works, if every single city runs specialists, alot of them would go to waste, so you want to centralise your GPP production to only a couple of cities max. Even then, that's very short-term, lightbulbing runs out of steam as GP costs ramp up and bulbable techs run out. So yeah, you want to turn your short term economic boosts into a timing attack that secures you alot more land with the specialist economy, instead of using specialists for raw research ability (cottages have that covered). If your breakout war fails, then you'll be so far behind that you'll lose.
And really, specialists are overrated on lower difficulties. A scientist eats 2 food and shits 3 science. This means you need 2 grassland farms to feed a single scientist! It means you need 3 population and 3 happiness to generate 3 commerce, with no food surplus! You know what beats this? Lighthouse coasts! Each citizen generates 2 commerce, and they are food neutral.
Ah, but what if you have the mids. You know what also matches rep scientists? Lighthouse coasts as well!
So no, the appeal of the specialist economy are not the raw commerce, because you're better off working tiles. If you're going that route, at most, you want to use your specialists to eat up spare food so that your cities don't grow into unhappiness, but it's not like those pop points are worthless when you have slavery. No, instead, the appeal of specialists is in the great people points. I think it was Unconquered Sun who made the point that every single GPP was the equivalent of 40-50 beakers. You then turn those beakers into more beakers with promiscuous tech trading. This really works on Immortal-Diety, where the AI have enough of a tech rate boost that it's the only way to keep up and stay in the tech race.
Of course, the way the GPP system works, if every single city runs specialists, alot of them would go to waste, so you want to centralise your GPP production to only a couple of cities max. Even then, that's very short-term, lightbulbing runs out of steam as GP costs ramp up and bulbable techs run out. So yeah, you want to turn your short term economic boosts into a timing attack that secures you alot more land with the specialist economy, instead of using specialists for raw research ability (cottages have that covered). If your breakout war fails, then you'll be so far behind that you'll lose.
Hodory
Warlord
Not an expert on this matter by any means, but I look and see what is most beneficial with the Great Scientist when he pops. If it is fairly early in the game, I usually do not bulb. I look to either settle or build an academy. But since academy works on a percentage basis, the base beaker production should be high enough. Sometimes it just happens to work out that settling seems to make more sense, especially if I had built the Pyramids, running Representation, and as a Philosophical leader. Generally speaking though, I feel more comfortable building an academy.
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