What should the Civ VII political system be like?

[Evie]

What you're describing is even less of a game than the original Victoria, and Victoria took forever to get a second version because of how limited it was as a game - it turns out, "staring at spreadsheet for days" is NOT part of the definition of games for most people, and the original Victoria only appealed to a tiny niche of players.

When it did eventually get sequels, every single one of them has moved *away* from the "player only has a little influence" model to giving the player a lot more control precisely because "player only has indirect influence" doesn't work for gaming. The whole point of making the design more accessible - more of a game! - has been to give the players more agency.

(And nobody except you think the player is meant to be the ruler of a nation in Civ. That's just your own mistaken obsession.)

 

[luca 83]

What you're describing is even less of a game than the original Victoria, and Victoria took forever to get a second version because of how limited it was as a game - it turns out, "staring at spreadsheet for days" is NOT part of the definition of games for most people, and the original Victoria only appealed to a tiny niche of players.

When it did eventually get sequels, every single one of them has moved *away* from the "player only has a little influence" model to giving the player a lot more control precisely because "player only has indirect influence" doesn't work for gaming. The whole point of making the design more accessible - more of a game! - has been to give the players more agency.

(And nobody except you think the player is meant to be the ruler of a nation in Civ. That's just your own mistaken obsession.)

Yes the player as the head of an entire cycle development , founds cities where he wants declares war changes governments, trades, builds buildings in cities, trades, cos and if not arbitrary absolute power?

 

[Evie]

That is in fact what the players does in Civilization.

Because it is a game, and implicit in the concept of a game are the notion of abstraction and putting gameplay first. Historical reality is there to provide flavor to the game ; it is not what the game is about. The game is about its gameplay, that is, the interactions between players (AI-controlled or not) as they try to gain the upper hand in the game.

A bunch of people fiddling with tax rates and how much funding they give each of their ministry is not gameplay. It's work.

 

[luca 83]

That is in fact what the players does in Civilization.

Because it is a game, and implicit in the concept of a game are the notion of abstraction and putting gameplay first. Historical reality is there to provide flavor to the game ; it is not what the game is about. The game is about its gameplay, that is, the interactions between players (AI-controlled or not) as they try to gain the upper hand in the game.

A bunch of people fiddling with tax rates and how much funding they give each of their ministry is not gameplay. It's work.

Of course the gamepla is important but also the internal and external dynamics, which provoke the events and which must be simulated , the French revolution , or Russian can not be provoked by the player but must be a series of events and probability even with a dose of chance, make the game less predictable

 

[luca 83]

Of course the gamepla is important but also the internal and external dynamics, which provoke the events and which must be simulated , the French revolution , or Russian can not be provoked by the player but must be a series of events and probability even with a dose of chance, make the game less predictable

Examples of how history is influenced by events are very much; the crisis of 1929 brought millions of Germans on the pavement favoring the Nazis and Communists , the war lost by the Russians in 1917 contributed to the riots of February 1917. And and at the first stage of the Russian revolution , the industrial revolution in Germany helped Prussia in unification : in summary, no there can be not only a human choice in the game but a series of uncontrollable factors

 

[vorlon_mi]

You have expressed your opinion; I disagree with that opinion. I do not agree that a game MUST include "a series of uncontrollable factors." Repeating your statements will not make them more persuasive. Giving dozens of examples from real world history does not change what could be present in a computer game.

I am very flexible in thinking about what could be present in a game. "di larghe vedute", according to Google Translate.

 

[luca 83]

You have expressed your opinion; I disagree with that opinion. I do not agree that a game MUST include "a series of uncontrollable factors." Repeating your statements will not make them more persuasive. Giving dozens of examples from real world history does not change what could be present in a computer game.

I am very flexible in thinking about what could be present in a game. "di larghe vedute", according to Google Translate.

You are not at all open-minded no history and indeterminate a series of choices and individual events can change history : the storm that destroyed the invincible Spanish army on the coast of England, the epidemic of dengue that stops Napoleon in Egypt , . Not everything of course must be a coincidence but events such as epidemics , famine , revolts , revolutions managed better than in the IV should be contemplated , only war , conquest , colonization , construction , buildings , are no longer enough , and in the IV the great characters were not random? Why not broaden the subject

 

[pokiehl]

You are not at all open-minded

This is quite the rude accusation to level at vorlon, who is sincerely engaging with you and trying to see and respect your point of view.

 

[luca 83]

When a war or revolution breaks out the outcomes are unpredictable chaos and a constant that makes much considered , suggestions about leaders and civilizations are only cosmetic speeches, napoleon and napoleon, because there was the French revolution, Bismarck because it is part of a process of German unification: peoples should be neutral and acquire characteristics, as well as leaders children of their own time and era

 

[Evie]

You already said that. Many times.

 

[luca 83]

You already said that. Many times.

So I suggest we talk more deeply about economics and political systems instead of making random lists of Mesoamerican tribes , or Papua New Guinea

 

[luca 83]

Every action in the game should lead to a possible consequence including that of the opponents : therefore an excellent AI and a greater possibility in the choices and menu of the organization, much more detailed , and above all led to more choices and more economic , scientific , cultural policies

 

[dagriggstar]

Something I was wondering recently was whether we should differentiate between abode - brick - timber - stone - nomad 'architecture'. Like, is whether your civilization builds with majority of one type a cultural or technological choice ? Then have bonuses associated with each. That's a kind of early game civic choice I wouldn't mind from a gameplay stand point.

Every action in the game should lead to a possible consequence

Given that you haven't described any in game action besides war and revolution, I actually question if you have played the game of civilization. How about you list what game actions would lead to a Monarchy being formed ?

 

[luca 83]

Something I was wondering recently was whether we should differentiate between abode - brick - timber - stone - nomad 'architecture'. Like, is whether your civilization builds with majority of one type a cultural or technological choice ? Then have bonuses associated with each. That's a kind of early game civic choice I wouldn't mind from a gameplay stand point.



Given that you haven't described any in game action besides war and revolution, I actually question if you have played the game of civilization. How about you list what game actions would lead to a Monarchy being formed ?

And complicated the classical Greek monarchy and different from the Chinese and the Barbarian Middle Ages and different from the Roman - Hellenic historically after the Mycenaean Middle Ages city states were born on the basis of clans elective kings or assemblies of nobles in the Homeric era were a set of city states and coalitions

 

[dagriggstar]

And complicated the classical Greek monarchy and different from the Chinese and the Barbarian Middle Ages and different from the Roman - Hellenic historically after the Mycenaean Middle Ages city states were born on the basis of clans elective kings or assemblies of nobles in the Homeric era were a set of city states and coalitions

So the prerequisite for getting a Monarchy is to have elective kings or assemblies of nobles. But how do you transition between the two ? Do you use culture points ? Does your government just change every x turns ? Is the "noble assembly" some kind of building that needs to be built ?

 

[luca 83]

So the prerequisite for getting a Monarchy is to have elective kings or assemblies of nobles. But how do you transition between the two ? Do you use culture points ? Does your government just change every x turns ? Is the "noble assembly" some kind of building that needs to be built ?

Surely the interests of the various factions of matter but it can not only be action or reaction in the historical process

 

[dagriggstar]

Surely the interests of the various factions of matter but it can not only be action or reaction in the historical process

What are the "various factions" ? How are they created ? Does the player influence them with diplomatic favour or with gold or some other way ?
What are the potential interests of a faction ? How are a factions interests determined ?

So far we have
1) ??? Unknown game mechanic
2) "Various factions"
3) ??? A second Unknown game mechanic
4) "Various factions" now have "interests"
5) ??? A third unknown game mechanic
6) Civilization acquires "elective kings" or "assembly of nobles". It is still unclear whether these are government policies or buildings or yet another unknown game mechanic
7) ??? A fourth unknown game mechanic
8) Civilization becomes a monarchy

 

[luca 83]

I do not have all the solutions the various factions could. Ask for various policies and grant support to the sovereign. Or to the form of government of course there are miles of factors to change things citizenship, the form of government, the economy, politics, the state, war or peace, the people the electoral system, things that change over the centuries, can not only be politics card

 

[luca 83]

For example the institutions of the Holy Roman Empire from the death of Charlemagne to the free communes and communal lordships and all a matter of dynastic economic , political interests and contrasts between empire and church

 

[vorlon_mi]

Something I was wondering recently was whether we should differentiate between abode - brick - timber - stone - nomad 'architecture'. Like, is whether your civilization builds with majority of one type a cultural or technological choice ? Then have bonuses associated with each. That's a kind of early game civic choice I wouldn't mind from a gameplay stand point.

"a cultural or technological choice" That's a fascinating question.

I think that choices of buildings might provide some different bonuses at different points in the game. After a flood or fire, the population rebuilds using the current methods, which might not be exactly the same as they used before. The style might be dominated by culture, but the materials and methods might be dominated by technology... or cost. Quarrying stone requires a lot of labor in the first few eras, so building an abode for a family or clan might be too expensive.

On the other hand, we have historical accounts of conquering armies who burned up villages and towns. Making a choice to build mostly with timber might include a tradeoff: cheaper vs. more vulnerable in case of war.

As fascinating as the question is, I'm not sure how to represent it in a choice of civics or policies. In multiple recent Civ games, we have an abstraction -- chopping -- that leads to increased production, not just increased availability of wood/timber. If we choose to link building materials to culture and policies, we could impact other game systems.