What should the Civ VII political system be like?

[GeneralZift]

Can someone explain in layman's terms what any of this has to do with Civilization?

 

[dagriggstar]

I didn’t want to go too deep on the tech side of things with my suggestion above, but I envisioned the era progression more like era 1/2/3/4 etc rather than naming them (I thought ancient/classical would be easier to follow). When you get to era 2, the width of the tech tree would allow a wide range of possibilities, which is where you might end up with civ A Iron Age civ B preclassical Americas (so I guess are you researching iron or obsidian weaponry for example).

I like some kind of upheaval to progress as a concept but I’ve not seen much support around these forums for it….

On a gameplay level, I don’t like how science has always driven the game. So for me some kind of science gate system would be necessary.

 

[Evie]

It has to do with whether the political system in Civ IV (which allows a civ to have Hereditary Rule and State Property at the same time) is bad because it allows that,

Since a number of us see the Civ IV political system as the best base to build on, and one of us keeps going back to criticizing it because he thinks allowing hereditary rule and state property at the same time is Very Bad.

 

[luca 83]

For the same reason the fixed leaders are useless every government every epoch represents a different person an ideology , if an ideological and communist government procures communists , as the great characters in the IV , if and fascist procures tendentially fascist leaders ; and the First World War that produced Hitler , and the revolution of 1917 to have created Stalin , the leaders as the spirit of the nation and a concept surpassed , only to have then some animation or sound ?

 

[Evie]

Nobody here has talked about leaders for the last several pages. This isn't the thread for that.

 

[luca 83]

The leader is the product of a government, being the head of the state, it represents the ideology or a dynasty and it is correlated

 

[AffineConstant]

Thinking about splitting economy, you could do it into 3 categories (apologies for not thinking of good naming conventions):

Government negotiates on behalf of itself: Historically see the USSR, Apollo Program, everyone during WW2, etc. This is the state getting what the state wants. Think war, space programs, infrastructure. This branch has citizens churn out your production/work, so world wonders, units, etc. You want the Apollo Program, or to fight a war, or etc. you want this. Might include less unhappiness from war, but less happiness overall.
Government negotiates on behalf of the people: Historically see mid 20th century+ Europe/similar. This is the state getting what the people want. Maxes out culture and happiness and religion (earlier anyway), so if you want a religion/culture victory, or pressure for other reasons, or to defend from cultural/religion pressure you want this.
People negotiate on behalf of people: Historically see: The US/Switzerland/etc. This is people free to get what they want from each other. This would max out science/money/trade, you want to get rich/science victory this is what you want.

 

[luca 83]

Thinking about splitting economy, you could do it into 3 categories (apologies for not thinking of good naming conventions):

Government negotiates on behalf of itself: Historically see the USSR, Apollo Program, everyone during WW2, etc. This is the state getting what the state wants. Think war, space programs, infrastructure. This branch has citizens churn out your production/work, so world wonders, units, etc. You want the Apollo Program, or to fight a war, or etc. you want this. Might include less unhappiness from war, but less happiness overall.
Government negotiates on behalf of the people: Historically see mid 20th century+ Europe/similar. This is the state getting what the people want. Maxes out culture and happiness and religion (earlier anyway), so if you want a religion/culture victory, or pressure for other reasons, or to defend from cultural/religion pressure you want this.
People negotiate on behalf of people: Historically see: The US/Switzerland/etc. This is people free to get what they want from each other. This would max out science/money/trade, you want to get rich/science victory this is what you want.

Power groups , nobles , bourgeois , clerics , in antiquity and in the Middle Ages , and ideologies in the modern era Moderna, however and always a favor the interest of one or more groups, of power and interest, the nobles will want one thing the bourgeois another the ecclesiastics another, the Catholics one thing the Protestants another i put a pie of requests in percentage

 

[Evie]

That's Victoria., You're asking for Victoria. It already exists.

 

[luca 83]

That's Victoria., You're asking for Victoria. It already exists.

the idea is right but poorly done the interests of the population should be kept in mind no civ has ever given importance to the population and its needs and ideologies

 

[luca 83]

ideologies are linked to economic ideologies a liberal state is normal with a constitutional monarchy, and a system based on liberalism possible with welfare state traits as in Sweden, an absolutist state will be much more protPoliticalectionist and opposed to liberalism, and not very secular, with many privileges of the nobility in the case of the ancienne regime or in Russia until the early 20th century

 

[Krajzen]

Civ5 had super awesome idea with stark divide between three ideologies of Freedom, Order and Autocracy (which imo should be named Liberty, Egality, Fraternity instead - just look how based that sounds), which were obligatory choice and generated a lot of interesting endgame friction, activating many interesting endgame mechanics, changing the way gov and culture works... It actually offered some nonlinear chaos to the endgame, making it possible to cripple major civ with huge ideological unhappiness, messing up with previously good relations and alliances, etc etc. So many interesting ideas, and yet more potential for the future iterations!

I have always failed to understand, why oh why was it removed in civ6 in favour of... nothing. Just stale, bland endgame of even more of the exponential yield accumulation, eternally stable alliances, and governments being again reduced just to the choice of % bonuses.

Could we please get back to those three major ideologies and their inevitable clash since the industrial revolution? It's just such a natural, historical way to introduce endgame fun starkly different from the early eras. Give me some French Revolutionary Wars, 1848, communist subversion, world wars, cold war, civil discontent, occupy wall street, neoliberalism stuff. How is it possible that civ doesn't simulate such obvious fun lategame scenarios like REVOLUTION, WORLD WAR or COLD WAR? Gee how could we make lategame more interesting, if only we had some interesting chaotic events from the 20th century to base our game on!

I honestly don't care at all about complicating this three-way division into introducing 56 subdivisions and arguing what is the real communism anyway, that's not important, just give me some political system in civ which naturally generates Interesting Geopolitical Chaos. The purpose of political system in 4X games should be to serve the game, not to break our heads over [what a glorious Polish idiom] the perfect way to scientifically divide varieties of monarchist libertarian maoism.

 

[AffineConstant]

From a game perspective I do like the idea of not being able to unlock all the culture tree stuff every game.

There's no particular reason for it to be a copy of the science tree, actually there's no particular reason for all of the science tree to be unlocked every single game either. South Korea just unlocked "Satellites" after all, the UK and US haven't unlocked any voting system beyond "First past the post" despite desperately needing to. So it's historically accurate as well. Whatever the reason behind not being able to unlock every last thing on a tech tree, making the default not being able to unlock all of them is a great idea.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

From a game perspective I do like the idea of not being able to unlock all the culture tree stuff every game.

There's no particular reason for it to be a copy of the science tree, actually there's no particular reason for all of the science tree to be unlocked every single game either. South Korea just unlocked "Satellites" after all, the UK and US haven't unlocked any voting system beyond "First past the post" despite desperately needing to. So it's historically accurate as well. Whatever the reason behind not being able to unlock every last thing on a tech tree, making the default not being able to unlock all of them is a great idea.

In game terms shouln't South Korea be able to be able to the policy for Satellites because they have a science alliance with America? They certainly would be allowed to access to non-military satellite information.

 

[luca 83]

Dal punto di vista del gioco, mi piace l'idea di non poter sbloccare tutti gli elementi dell'albero culturale in ogni gioco.

Non c'è una ragione particolare per cui debba essere una copia dell'albero della scienza, in realtà non c'è nemmeno una ragione particolare per cui tutto l'albero della scienza venga sbloccato in ogni singolo gioco. Dopotutto la Corea del Sud ha appena sbloccato i “Satelliti”, il Regno Unito e gli Stati Uniti non hanno sbloccato alcun sistema di voto oltre al “First past the post” nonostante ne avessero un disperato bisogno. Quindi è anche storicamente accurato. Qualunque sia la ragione per cui non siamo in grado di sbloccare ogni ultima cosa su un albero tecnologico, rendere predefinito il fatto di non poterli sbloccare tutti è un'ottima idea.

Dovrebbe essere creata un’idea di fascismo e comunismo nel secolo secolo, anche nelle molte sfumature di socialdemocrazia, liberalismo, corporativismo, economia, monarchia costituzionale, assoluta, fascista in Italia e Romania, democrazia, rappresentanza. La base iniziale della civiltà dovrebbero essere i tre poteri politico, giudiziario,

 

[Evie]

Unfortunately, the vast majority of us still don't speak what appears to be Italian. And the ability of automated translation to accurately render the ideas in a text being actually quite limited, I wouldn't trust it to sustain a conversation on an internet forum.

(Which means, also, that using automated translation on our posts as you're obviously doing here can and will lead to misunderstandings as to what we're actually saying).

 

[luca 83]

An idea of fascism and communism should be created in the century century, including in the many shades of social democracy, liberalism, corporatism, economics, constitutional monarchy, absolute, fascist in Italy and Romania, democracy, representation. The initial basis of civilization should be the three powers-political, judicial,...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

From a game perspective I do like the idea of not being able to unlock all the culture tree stuff every game.

There's no particular reason for it to be a copy of the science tree, actually there's no particular reason for all of the science tree to be unlocked every single game either. South Korea just unlocked "Satellites" after all, the UK and US haven't unlocked any voting system beyond "First past the post" despite desperately needing to. So it's historically accurate as well. Whatever the reason behind not being able to unlock every last thing on a tech tree, making the default not being able to unlock all of them is a great idea.

The thing is a science victory is very much tied to researching and completing as many technologies as possible in order to be able to complete the space race projects. If the science/technological victory was not centered around the space race I might agree.

 

[luca 83]

The government should be influenced by the population through revolts or revolutions not just arbitrarily decided by the player , there should be a screen showing the mood of the population by classes or interests such as in tropico for example or at any ggesrional game

 

[pokiehl]

The government should be influenced by the population through revolts or revolutions not just arbitrarily decided by the player , there should be a screen showing the mood of the population by classes or interests such as in tropico for example or at any ggesrional game

That’s what Amenities/Happiness is for. Civ has had this mechanic for a long time.