What should we consider exploits in Civ5?

[backnine31]

Just time your great people points to hit the number on the same turn. Then all happen at once. So if you have an Engineer, Scientist, and Artist all building to say 300 and you manipulate them to all cross that threshold on the same turn, you get them all.

Like I said, I've only actually had it happen once, but I read one of the guys saying he popped three at once (I think last game....I'll try to find it) so it must still work.


Not sure if in that scenario the new threshold goes from 300 to 400 or from 300 to 600 though. If it's the former then I would think it would definitely have to be considered an exploit. If the latter, then who knows....

After building the Great Library, I built Chichen Itza and the Porcelain Tower. I used Meritocracy to get a GE that built Louvre, and after the tower I believe I finally started on the Sistine Chapel. In case you're wondering (no pun intended), I didn't build a single normal building (except Monument) till almost the end of the game. I traded cotton, marble, and sugar to anyone and everyone for gold and gpt, and bought up most buildings. I waited until I had 4 cities and had bought an Opera House before I took Legalism, so that it would give me a Museum in my capital (those things are just too expensive), then worked on Hermitage. My capital was always building wonders, with Marble and Aristocracy helping out tremendously.

I kept selling my luxuries to keep my happiness below the first Golden Age until I had gotten Chichen Itza built. Once it was built, I was able to keep in Golden Ages for a long while. First GA helped finish Porcelain Tower and Sistine Chapel, and then I burned a GG to finish Hermitage. Educated Elite gave me an Engineer, which I used on Taj Mahal for another GA, followed by the GAs in Piety and Liberty. This led me all the way through to Telegraph, which I believe I got in turn 204. I had timed a triple great person pop in Mecca to give me an Artist, Engineer and Scientist a few turns before I finished Military Science, and when I completed MilScience I bulbed Steam Power, Electricity, and Telegraph in turn 204.

Last line. Neuro's 7th spoiler tag in TSG11 after action thread.

 

[Tabarnak]

for pointing me in that direction. I see the HoF is ahead of me by about a month.

I do not see anything about RA's and blocking though.

Oops

Not HoF staff, i mean GOTM staff.

Only few players have participated gauntlets recently, mainly because HoF is still unstable. It's much about definitions of what is an exploit.

 

[Tabarnak]

Just time your great people points to hit the number on the same turn. Then all happen at once. So if you have an Engineer, Scientist, and Artist all building to say 300 and you manipulate them to all cross that threshold on the same turn, you get them all.

Like I said, I've only actually had it happen once, but I read one of the guys saying he popped three at once (I think last game....I'll try to find it) so it must still work.


Not sure if in that scenario the new threshold goes from 300 to 400 or from 300 to 600 though. If it's the former then I would think it would definitely have to be considered an exploit. If the latter, then who knows....

I don't think it's an exploit because each GPs act differently. What we don't want is a kind of chain reaction. RA blocking and multiple broken deals from war are some examples.

A GP exploit should more be like popping many great scientists(easiest) from many cities at same time.

 

[Tabarnak]

Many good points have been revealed in the HoF discussion thread but i think it's not clear enough for GOTM. It's even worse in GOTM competitions because we all play the same map and only once.

If i play the game and see Alex with 350 gold and 8 gpt at turn 60 and another player see Alex with 100 gold and 8 gpt on turn 60 and we both want to sell a lux, I'm clearly advantaged. How? Luck. Only luck.

RAs are the same. I can get enough dealers to get a 4-5 RA combo on turn 70 and another player can see things very differently and cannot do the same, only because i got more luck.

We can play an infinite amount of games in the HoF section. Not really comparable.

 

[MadDjinn]

not again...

here are the exploits still in the game:

Multiple Oxfords.

......

That's it, for the moment. (until the next patch or two causes one) The only thing that comes close is the super cheesy diplo win. Wait until the vote is about to come (not the same turn), sell all lux/GPT to each AI in succession for LSG while using the LSG to ally CSs, then declare war. Rinse/repeat. But it's not an exploit; just a crappy Diplo VC mechanic.

Nothing else, commonly argued about, counts as an exploit. No matter what people who a) think it's cheating bc they don't like/understand it, or b) are all moralistic about their specific way of playing and want to force everyone else to play that limited way.

RA blocking is fine, it's in the game, common, and there's already threads to teach people how to do it. (or just watch my LPs on YouTube) This is emperor, not Deity. The AI just doesn't have the cash flow to do it. Same for LSG trades. (pillaging got fixed, so LSG trades aren't an issue)

Please don't add peoples 'feelings' about game play styles to a list of banned play. Especially don't call them exploits.

 

[ssjos]

I think the rules posted under HoF section are quite good at making the game balanced and enjoyable.

Basically, they have a rule that say you cant make an agreement where you claim AI lump sum of gold and then break it. However, you are still allowed to sell your luxuries if you wait it out.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=420542

 

[Neuro]

How did I miss that? Could you describe how it works?

As backnine mentioned, what you do is manipulate your Specialists so that two or more specialist bars in the same city hit 'full' on the same turn. This creates one of each of the great people, but it does increase the counter for the next one correctly.

In my game, for instance, I did the math and worked out how many turns I'd need with each specialist to get them all to cross 300 at the same time. This gave me an Artist, Engineer, and Scientist to use, and bumped the GP bar all the way to 600.

 

[Tabarnak]

Question is not about what people like or dislike, it's about what rules are the best to prevent unbalanced events.

Since we can play infinite amount of games in the HoF system, it's easier to set good and balanced rules. More you play games more you reduce luck factor over time because you can hit a very good game somewhere. Actual rules are ok.

GOTM is a different beast and is currently in beta stage. You only have one try and you don't want the luck factor to interfere too much. Players with almost equal skills are actually playing roulette. That's my opinion.

Exploits or not, we all need rules that will prevent unbalanced things.

 

[Monthar]

Since this really belongs here instead of the GMT12 announcement thread, I'm replying to the post from there in this thread.

And if you go for a particular path like science, diplomatic or cultural victory you have a chance to get only bottom techs.

I think the devs designed the RA system the way it is as a means of reducing the bee-lining that those VC's pretty much require. You either take the chance of getting a tech that doesn't help your bee-line or you spend many turns "blocking" the techs you don't want it to give. This is why I think being able to block tech is by design, especially since you have to put at least 25% into the tech to block it. Sometimes that means just 1 turn, other times it's several turns to guarantee it's blocked from the RA.

In any case I still say the RA should have been a bonus to the BPT for both civs instead of a random tech. The amount of BPT should be gold cost divided by the duration of the RA. So if it's 200 gold for 30 turns that's 200/30 = 6.67 BPT. Then it wouldn't matter if the RA ended before completion or what your tech path is, both sides would still benefit for as long as it lasts. Plus it would take out the pure luck factor you mentioned in the quote below.

Question is not about what people like or dislike, it's about what rules are the best to prevent unbalanced events.

Since we can play infinite amount of games in the HoF system, it's easier to set good and balanced rules. More you play games more you reduce luck factor over time because you can hit a very good game somewhere. Actual rules are ok.

GOTM is a different beast and is currently in beta stage. You only have one try and you don't want the luck factor to interfere too much. Players with almost equal skills are actually playing roulette. That's my opinion.

Exploits or not, we all need rules that will prevent unbalanced things.

 

[Monthar]

Just time your great people points to hit the number on the same turn. Then all happen at once. So if you have an Engineer, Scientist, and Artist all building to say 300 and you manipulate them to all cross that threshold on the same turn, you get them all.

Like I said, I've only actually had it happen once, but I read one of the guys saying he popped three at once (I think last game....I'll try to find it) so it must still work.


Not sure if in that scenario the new threshold goes from 300 to 400 or from 300 to 600 though. If it's the former then I would think it would definitely have to be considered an exploit. If the latter, then who knows...

I've done this to get all 4 GP to pop in my capital on the same turn. I've also tried to get multiple GS to pop at the same time from different cities. However, I haven't been able to make more than one of the same type of GP to pop at the same time. so I think this is limited to only one city popping a GP at a time, even if you can get that city to pop all 4 types.

 

[Tabarnak]

Sorry if i misunderstood some guys around, but since english is not my primary language, what i think and what i write may differ a bit. The word exploit in french doesnt exactly have the same signification than in english.

''Exploitation''(french) roughly equal to ''manipulation''(english). Strangely, these two words exist for both languages!

Yes, now i understand that related exploits are only what Madjinn said.

You need a lot of gold to make chains RAs. Lump sums of gold are needed. RA is by far the strongest tool around to propulse yourself in the tech tree. I did that myself many time with success and it's fairly easy when you take your time and calculate everything. But you don't need skills to do that. You need patience and a lot of luck to get all the money in time.

In HoF games, you can play a lot of games until you hit almost perfect conditions. Overall skills are needed but a big part of the game come from money you can gather through games and pray to see rich AIs around.

HoF can build is own church of faith and resurect everyone who want to but not in GOTM competitions. Two worlds, two measures.

 

[humbe]

Just adding my personal opinions.

Popping multiple great people doesn't sound like an exploit to me. Especially as long as cost for next ones is updated correctly and you can't pop multiple of the same kind. For many situations, some great people are better than others. Popping out an artist, engineer and scientist at the same time, it means it will take you longer to get 3 of the kind that is best for your scenario, but you gain back by having got them cheaper. Only thing I dislike about it is that it is a lot of micromanaging to do.

As for trading, I think a fairly easy solution would be to not allow to trade per turn stuff against one time stuff. So you can't trade away a resource for a lump sum of gold, only gold per turn. I dislike that if you lose a resource traded that cancel the whole deal, for instance by letting barbarians remove an improvement. That way you can sell all you have for lots of money when you see barb will destroy improvement next turn, and then get all back the next turn but keep all you got yourself. That has to be an exploit. It is clearly overpowered and unintended functionality by the developers. If allowing to trade GPT stuff for lump sums, then the stuff you trade GPT should be unavailable for you during the full 30 turns no matter if there's a war or the deal is cancelled.

As to the RAs, I haven't seen a problem with them yet. You research a lot quicker with RAs than without RAs, but it also requires you to keep peaceful relations. It is far from as overpowered as tech trading used to be in CivIV, so a huge improvement. In addition it makes it more of a choice to be a warmonger or not. If you warmonger to get a high population you get more people to research but have a harder time keeping RAs. If you are more peaceful it is easier to make RAs with more civs. If you want to block, you need to invest some beakers to do it. I see nothing wrong in beelining techs. What's the point in choosing what to research next if you can't beeline towards what is best for your civilization?

 

[tommynt]

Just stop this nonsense pls:
The thread is about exploits, not "personal opinions", personal opinion from 1 staff member allready screwed HOF, better dont let same hapen here.
This barb destroy thing .. I rather d not let barbs wonder through all my land destroying tiles after another haveing to repair later and not useable for some turns, having to move workers away ... just to have a potential deal broken - to what, maybe get some more happy faces?
Apart that I think its even been fixed.

Civ5 isnt a perfect game, but game weakneses are no exploits, calling trading or use of RA exploit d be same as upgrading warris to swords exploit in mp - every1 does it - its part of the game - just cause its strong its no exploit - no game is balanced perfect!
exploit and unbalance just isnt the same

go play chess if u want a balanced game - a pc game ll never be 100% balanced

 

[Gamewizard]

Thal's Balance Mod addresses many of the concerns being discussed here and then some. The result is a much more balanced game, and to the opinion of many, much more fun. Would incorporating his mod, or atleast parts of it, into the GOTM series be approved by the majority of players? Of course his mod is a work in progress and is being updated on a daily basis, but overall it feels to me a better game for all than Vanilla civ.

 

[Farrapo]

Of the various topics under discussion here the one that causes me the most concern is RA tech blocking. I don't know if it should be considered an exploit, but if you learn how to do it and your main objective is to win a game quickly, it is a very powerful technique to get a top result. I've decided not to use it, but don't mind if someone else wants to and can win 100 turns quicker, which is generally the case anyway

I have no problem with RAs in general, though I would like to have a game option to play without them (for AIs as well) and see how that goes. It might also be interesting to modify the RA scheme so that instead of being granted a technology after X turns, both countries in the trade would get some amount of science boost per turn for X turns. That would be a way to mutually accelerate the velocity of scientific advance rather than a major jump-ahead down a given track via blocking. There are pros and cons to that idea and I have no idea how to work out a fair value algorithm for it, nor is it the point of this thread to get into that.

I do not sell luxuries and then declare war on the guy I sold them to. That does seem "cheaty" to me though I don't think it swings an overall game result nearly as much as tech blocking. I have had cases where I sell a luxury and the other guy soon declares war on me and I can't help that. As various people have observed, there are multiple ways this situation could be resolved satisfactorily in code.

If someone enjoys doing all the calculations necessary to block techs or perfectly time Great Person generation, it's okay by me. I enjoy exploring all the aspects of the game and don't care if it takes longer to win, or if it means a loss. I am mainly a scenario player, but like trying the GOTMs because some of the setups are challenging, they make me explore approaches I would never think to try otherwise, and I learn a lot from the experts in these Forum exchanges.

 

[Kevin J]

Thal's Balance Mod addresses many of the concerns being discussed here and then some. The result is a much more balanced game, and to the opinion of many, much more fun. Would incorporating his mod, or atleast parts of it, into the GOTM series be approved by the majority of players? Of course his mod is a work in progress and is being updated on a daily basis, but overall it feels to me a better game for all than Vanilla civ.

I would be all for doing a second/variant GoTM with Thal's mod. It's all I've been playing with lately, and as has been the case since the release of Civ V, Thal's balance mod significantly improves on normal gameplay - most of the last content patch was lifted directly from his mod.

I used to find Thal's mod easier than the base game, as it used to just seem to give me more options, but not so anymore. The changes really have amounted to a rebalancing of the game, which both makes it more challenging while giving more strategic options. RA blocking is no longer the single most important facet in achieving fast win times.

RA 'exploiting' is gone, AI's and city states have significantly more units than the base game (warrior rush is still *barely* doable, but *much* more difficult, and pretty much requires ranged support) the tech tree is better / less exploitable, and policies have been reworked to balance out options - Honour seems a viable pathway now. I find an emperor game on Thal's mod more difficult than an immortal game on vanilla.

I've done several GoTM (without submitting, my times haven't been competitive), and follow the progress of other players. It would be awesome to play a GoTM using the mod that I've used for the majority of my playtime on Civ V since release, and see how other people play the same game.

Basically, I'd love to play a GoTM based on Thal's mod.

 

[MadDjinn]

No mods please; except for GotM specifically controlled mods.

If the modder changes the mod, or goes in some really odd direction for no reason, we're stuck. So official ownership of the mod has to be the GotM staff. (that way the mod is only updated on the GotM schedule)

 

[Kevin J]

No mods please; except for GotM specifically controlled mods.

If the modder changes the mod, or goes in some really odd direction for no reason, we're stuck. So official ownership of the mod has to be the GotM staff. (that way the mod is only updated on the GotM schedule)

That makes sense - and I wouldn't suggest using a mod for the main GoTM unless made with staff involvement. I'm suggesting something to do on the side, mostly so people could see how much the game is changed/improved when a focus has been made to balance strategic options.

I do think running a variant with Thal's balance mod would be useful prior to establishing a GoTM/HoF mod. It would allow people some experience with the main balance mod out there, and people could see what changes they would or wouldn't want incorporated in an eventual GoTM mod.

As far as updates go, the TBC beta is updated very frequently - but the point releases are less frequent. In any case, there is no forced updating of mods as there is in the base game, and previous versions remain available afaik, so there wouldn't be a problem with stating a mod version for a particular GoTM.

However, as I think on it more, this suggestion probably would be better posted in Thal's development board. Perhaps a GoTM coordinated over there but linked to here. Or something. I *think* his mod is far better suited to competitive gameplay than the base game, but without people actually playing competitive games with his mod to test it out, that's just my gut feeling.

I do know Thalassicus is very responsive to feedback on his mod - he really seems to strive for making it the best possible. It would be awesome having some competitive players pushing what can be done - and having Thal continue to refine what is already the best mod out there in response.

EDIT: This is really tangential to the thread topic - although a mod is probably the best eventual solution to 'exploits'. Please return to your regularly scheduled exploit discussion.

 

[leif erikson]

We will be looking to build a mod for GoTM. In the past, we have participated with the Hall of Fame Staff to create one mod for use with both events to minimize the number of mods players need to keep track of.

We are awaiting the release of the civ5 gamecore.dll file so we can see if a mod can be built that meets both requirements.

 

[AlanH]

Thal's balance mod significantly improves on normal gameplay

I don't think that would encourage us to incorporate it. Our Civ4 mods made minimal changes to the standard game play, and I see no reason to change that.

The BTS mod was based on BUG - "BtS Unaltered Gameplay". We aim to provide a competition *between human players*, as far as possible using the software as supplied. The software, the map, and the starting conditions provide a common playing field. You are not competing with the AI when you play a GOTM.