What would commerce look like in a uptopian world?

[Narz]

When people claim society now is better than its ever been they often point to the wide availability of consumer goods, as if that's one of the pillars of human joy.

But clearly the ability to consume whatever we want, whenever we want for whatever reason we want is not a freedom that's sustainable.

How would the creation, selling & disposal/recycling of goods (and services minus the last bit) work in an ideal world?

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

When people claim society now is better than its ever been they often point to the wide availability of consumer goods, as if that's one of the pillars of human joy.

But clearly the ability to consume whatever we want, whenever we want for whatever reason we want is not a freedom that's sustainable.

How would the creation, selling & disposal/recycling of goods (and services minus the last bit) work in an ideal world?

I freedom to pursue happiness is a pillar of human joy but happiness is rarely mindless consumerism and I don't know many people who can afford to engage is such behavior and even fewer who do by even my standards.

Regarding a more ideal world, I'd probably aim for more personal responsibility resulting in less regulation on the creating, selling, and purchasing aspects.

 

[Narz]

Regarding a more ideal world, I'd probably aim for more personal responsibility

How would you aim for that?

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

Maintaining high standards for my performance at work and in my personal life, increasing accountability, and taking on additional responsibilities when able. More diligence in the conscientiousness of my day in where I spend my time and how I measure my improvement.

That being said: I'm gonna go work out right now due to your post and reflecting on the issue. Thanks for making me a better person already.

Update: Worked out today as well 11/14/22
Worked again today 11/15/22 your post continues to inspire me.
Worked out 11/16/22
Worked out 11/17/22 (Saw a rather drastic improvement in my workout too)

Picked up an extra project to help 21 people last night 11/13/22. I was gonna say no but then remembered your post.

 

[João III]

Regarding a more ideal world, I'd probably aim for more personal responsibility resulting in less regulation on the creating, selling, and purchasing aspects.

This sounds like the start to Bioshock

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

This sounds like the start to Bioshock

Would you kindly?

 

[Kaitzilla]

But clearly the ability to consume whatever we want, whenever we want for whatever reason we want is not a freedom that's sustainable.

Sure it is.

Nuclear fuel + breeder reactors.
Mine the landfills as needed for newish raw materials.

Every nuclear disaster takes a huge spot of land off the table for 300 years, but it isn't the permanent death warrant global warming will become.

If nuclear power is too expensive, classify it under national security and take it out of the military budget each year.

 

[amadeus]

I suppose if I had to define in a general sense what I would consider ideal, it would be a condition whereby all human labor becomes an act of personal interest rather than economic necessity.

I don’t think that point can be reached for economic reasons, but I find some hope in the minimization of toil through the use of robotics, at some point pricing out much of the labor force.

With the latter, I don’t see much in terms of change of the base system of exchanging money for goods and services.

 

[Hygro]

First let's fantasize a utopian world. This is, I guess, a fan altered version of an advertisement that plays to our aspirations.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Given we are headed for automation of industry, it will likely be AI controlled Robotic driven industry
With AI government and set standards of living

I Hail our new Kawaii Japanese Robot overlords

 

[EgonSpengler]

When people claim society now is better than its ever been they often point to the wide availability of consumer goods, as if that's one of the pillars of human joy.

But clearly the ability to consume whatever we want, whenever we want for whatever reason we want is not a freedom that's sustainable.

How would the creation, selling & disposal/recycling of goods (and services minus the last bit) work in an ideal world?

I think the distribution of goods is frequently a bigger challenge and a bigger driver of cost than the production of goods. So I think some form of clean & cheap energy generation or energy storage that can be applied to ships, trains and trucks would be a part of an "ideal" vision for the future. Currently the generation of energy in transportation requires fuel that must itself be transported to the consumer. If cargo ships and trucks could run on, I dunno, solar power and batteries, there'd be no need for oil and diesel. Around here, there's some consciousness about "buying local", but frankly, those goods are often more expensive than the stuff shipped by the tens (hundreds? thousands?) of tons from halfway around the world. What the world needs is a quiet, robotic, "Panamax" cargo ship that runs on solar and wind power. (Someone in yonder thread mentioned The Hunt for Red October. Imagine a robotic, solar & wind-powered cargo ship using a "caterpillar drive.") Also, eliminating oil and liquified natural gas as energy sources would dramatically cut the amount of ocean traffic. I think transport of liquid fuels accounts for something like half of all maritime traffic, and a lot of the liquid fuel we ship is for other ships, which then go and get the bananas we eat and the computer chips we put in everything. Trains and trucks too, of course. People are working on the "last mile" problem with things like drones, but if we had a network of electrically-powered, automated vehicles, that problem is solved. It's something out of a sci-fi movie, of course, but not one that's set hundreds of the years in the future, like Star Trek. A utopian vision like I'm describing could be 50 years from now, not 500.

I'm also wondering how far off 3D printing technology that can "print" electronics is. Being able to simply craft durable consumer goods at home would reduce the need to transport all that stuff. I also wonder if a 3D printer-in-reverse is theoretically possible. If you can "print" a new chip for your PC, could you put your old CPU in the same machine and reduce it to its components? What about textiles? Is there, even hypothetically, a 3D printer in the next 50 years that can make a pair of socks?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

would have to first agree on what utopian looks like before it is possible to estimate how commerce or any other specific facet would look

i doubt this forum or people in general are anywhere even kind of close to agreement on that, once you get to details

 

[Lexicus]

If we define commerce as exchange activity engaged in with the purpose of hedging against insecurity (hence maximizing profit) then commerce as such wouldn't exist in a utopian world without insecurity

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

It would look like users here buying me stuff I want

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It would look like users here buying me stuff I want

tends to be what it amounts to, with close enough to everyone saying the same thing

 

[amadeus]

If cargo ships and trucks could run on, I dunno, solar power and batteries, there'd be no need for oil and diesel.

A nitpick on my end, but you would still need oil for the manufacture of consumer products; however, this represents only a small fraction of consumption.

I know zip about chemistry so if there is a viable alternative that is both cost-competitive and more environmentally friendly.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

I’m kidding everyone!!! I don’t know the dang answer and nobody does

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I’m kidding everyone!!! I don’t know the dang answer and nobody does

i know you were joking, but i don't think you're too far off from how people think if they don't attempt to suss out details

 

[EgonSpengler]

A nitpick on my end, but you would still need oil for the manufacture of consumer products; however, this represents only a small fraction of consumption.

I know zip about chemistry so if there is a viable alternative that is both cost-competitive and more environmentally friendly.

Well, I was talking purely about the transportation of goods. If you include passenger travel, I think transportation is something like 2/3rds of the overall consumption of petroleum, and a huge amount of that is personal transportation (e.g. cars).

But, yes, oil goes into plastics, and we're terrible about using, reusing, and recycling plastics. A more efficient way to recycle and reuse plastics would be a necessary part of any utopian vision for a future economy, I would think. I might even go so far as to say that finding a replacement for plastics should be a medium-term goal. Merely figuring out how to better recycle plastic takeout containers and Keurig cups might not be good enough anymore. And so much plastic has already leeched into the biosphere, we now also need a technology for removing it - plastic "micro beads" in seawater and, like, the bloodstreams of animals and people. I think we're already at the point where if you eat a wild-caught fish, you're likely eating some plastic. But that's probably beyond the scope of this thread, and as with "3D printing" textiles at home, I don't know if that's 30 years away or 300.

Random thoughts:

I'm wondering if water desalination that's cheap enough to spread around to the poorer parts of the world would have some impact on the fundamental world economy that I'm not thinking of right now. Obviously that would have tremendous life impact.

I heard on the radio this morning that the continent of Africa is projected to have a population of 4 billion by the end of the century (I was half-asleep, I can't remember who said that, or where he was getting the projection from). Nigeria alone will pass the United States in population sometime during that period. I think metropolitan Lagos is already close to metro-NYC, in population, and it isn't going to get smaller in the next 50 years. I haven't given it a ton of thought about how all of that might apply to this thread, but it's been tickling my brain.

 

[El_Machinae]

We can do much more with recycling than we are, though we do have to remember that the mantra "there's a lot of landfill space" is actually reasonably true. [Hint: very useful when people are complaining about fiberglass turbine blades not being recyclable]. It would help if people knew the difference between the different Resin Identification Codes and how they intentionally co-opted the recycling symbol to greenwash stuff. But still, those numbers contain valuable information - if you trust the manufacturer (which are increasingly fly-by-night imports). A landfill tax on a product would go a long way, plus a recycling deposit that encouraged actual recovery of the products.

In my region, there's actually a reasonably big problem. Industrial areas don't have recycling services. New employees rinse their jars and then look around for the recycling box and .... sometimes people volunteer to take them home. Nevermind that I'm sometimes dealing with large quantities of <1>, <2> or, <4> plastic that isn't worth my time recycling because of difficulty. Nevermind (again) that we have zero incentive to deal with sequestering toxic garbage into the devoted locations. Not only do we have to pay someone to drive it there, but we have to pay to drop it off. Incentives matter.