Txurce
Deity
Attila v13
Cap RR Boost v1
CivWillard v1
Copasetic v4
Free Research v3
Improved Notifications v6
Info Addict v10
TCB v 4.22 (beta)
WWGD v5
What Would Gandhi Do? - AI Rebalancing Mod
- Thread starter Sneaks
- Start date
Attila v13
Cap RR Boost v1
CivWillard v1
Copasetic v4
Free Research v3
Improved Notifications v6
Info Addict v10
TCB v 4.22 (beta)
WWGD v5
Txurce
Deity
Here's a possibly more interesting one - straight NC start (Scout/Warrior/Monument/Library) with one purchased worker. France declares war in 2760 BC.
It occurred to me that another factor may well be Thal's adjustments to leader attitudes.
It occurred to me that another factor may well be Thal's adjustments to leader attitudes.
Txurce
Deity
I played the same position, this time building up some archers and horses before completing the NC. France attacked around 2500 BC, and allied with Florence, but I held him off and pillaged two of his luxuries. In the meantime the Ottomans, who grew slowly and were low on gold besides, declared war as well. That's typical, given my size.
The fourth civ, Songhai, was my friend, and I paid him to DOW the Ottomans right away. From then on I slowly expanded, fighting off the French while dealing with my main enemy - Florence!
That's right - Florence attacked with a decent army horses, swords, spears, pikes, archers - and continually rebuilds very quickly as I kill his units. I've attached the latest save, because I'm curious what you make of the size of these CS armies, especially so early on. In this case it totally affected my game!
The fourth civ, Songhai, was my friend, and I paid him to DOW the Ottomans right away. From then on I slowly expanded, fighting off the French while dealing with my main enemy - Florence!
That's right - Florence attacked with a decent army horses, swords, spears, pikes, archers - and continually rebuilds very quickly as I kill his units. I've attached the latest save, because I'm curious what you make of the size of these CS armies, especially so early on. In this case it totally affected my game!
Holy Moley. That is one awesome CS!
I am really divided about this right now. Honestly, I think it is great that my tweaks seem to make the AI build larger armies when in war, and only focus on units if in the middle of a heated engagement. However, I want your opinion on a few things:
Do you think the reasons for war made sense in the games?
Was the AI rational in attacking you? (Were you an easy target, a danger, etc)
Do you feel challenged, but not frustrated when playing like this?
Aside from war, have you had enough diplomacy to get a real feel for the tweaked numbers?
I am really divided about this right now. Honestly, I think it is great that my tweaks seem to make the AI build larger armies when in war, and only focus on units if in the middle of a heated engagement. However, I want your opinion on a few things:
Do you think the reasons for war made sense in the games?
Was the AI rational in attacking you? (Were you an easy target, a danger, etc)
Do you feel challenged, but not frustrated when playing like this?
Aside from war, have you had enough diplomacy to get a real feel for the tweaked numbers?
Txurce
Deity
I'll start by saying that I'm playing Immortal, and that ought to very tough, especially early on. That means it's likely that if I find myself near someone like Napoleon, I may get targeted right away. Speaking only for myself, I feel challenged rather than frustrated, since I'm supposed to be an underdog.
The diplomacy so far hasn't given me a strong feel, but feels right. Askia was friendly after I traded with him (and had been in other games today). Suleiman was neutral and tried to strike at an opportune time. In that sense, it is certainly not too passive. You could argue it's too aggressive, but one game with these circumstances isn't nearly enough reason to do that.
Honestly, may main question is about Florence. The amount of units it's thrown at me is freaky. Can that be explained, or could that have happened, say, two months ago?
This is what I can tell you:
Florence is probably throwing units so fast for several possible reasons:
First, it might have a Forge/Stable/etc at that point
Second, I altered AI attack forces to require the AI to attack with no less than a certain number. So, if the AI is in combat, it will keep pumping.
Basically, Florence is doing nothing but unit pumping while it is in a war, which is exactly what I think a CS should do in that situation, given their vulnerable nature. I think it could have still happened 2 months ago, but it was far far far less likely because the AIs were less likely to pursue CSes and were less likely to attack you in general.
Florence is probably throwing units so fast for several possible reasons:
First, it might have a Forge/Stable/etc at that point
Second, I altered AI attack forces to require the AI to attack with no less than a certain number. So, if the AI is in combat, it will keep pumping.
Basically, Florence is doing nothing but unit pumping while it is in a war, which is exactly what I think a CS should do in that situation, given their vulnerable nature. I think it could have still happened 2 months ago, but it was far far far less likely because the AIs were less likely to pursue CSes and were less likely to attack you in general.
Txurce
Deity
This is very helpful to know, and makes the game much better, in my opinion. For example, I now see a big value in having an ally next door... or next door to my enemy! And the CS are more "in the game," so to speak. In retrospect they seemed to be going farther than five spaces from their city - is this standard, or also tweaked?
Txurce
Deity
I meant the units themselves ranging farther than they usually seem to. But I could be wrong about this.
Txurce
Deity
My two allies (Monaco and Stockholm) were far to the east, and they never made it near the action - so there is a limit to how far they'll range!
Honestly, I wouldn't change any of this stuff any time soon. It makes the game much more demanding. I've perversely enjoyed dealing with the Florentine army, and will have even more fun in the future, once I put some strategically placed CS in my employ.
Txurce
Deity
Playing the same test game through, this time skipping NC first to hold off France (successfully), I can report the following:
Diplomacy has been as expected. Both Songhai and Ottomans asked for Friendship. They haven't fought, but didn't need to - there's lots of room to expand, since no one's doing it very fast. By turn 145, AI happiness is 13, 17, 19: definitely no problem here. Gold, on the other hand, is low: I have 112, the AI 69, 36 and 14.
Growth was slow in general, which I happened to like. Last time Songhai exploded. This time at turn 75 Singhai and I had two cities, while Ottomans and France (whose settlers I kept taking) had one each. By turn 100, Songhai had 4, france 3, Ottomans and me 2. By turn 145, Songhai had 7, Ottomans and I had 5, and France 4 (after another war with me cost some more settlers.
Florence attacked me with 2 knights, 2 trebs, and 4 pikes, all at once. That seems beyond the pale - my militaristic aly only had 5 units at the time, but I survived this as well.
CS that have been at war with each other don't make peace after the AI and I do. By war, I mean actually fighting... as opposed to at war half a continent apart. The latter do make peace, as expected.
I mentioned in the Diplomacy Bug thread that when I counter on certain deals, the AI responds as if I'm offering peace (when there's no war). I doubt this has to do with this mod, but thought I'd mention it.
Diplomacy has been as expected. Both Songhai and Ottomans asked for Friendship. They haven't fought, but didn't need to - there's lots of room to expand, since no one's doing it very fast. By turn 145, AI happiness is 13, 17, 19: definitely no problem here. Gold, on the other hand, is low: I have 112, the AI 69, 36 and 14.
Growth was slow in general, which I happened to like. Last time Songhai exploded. This time at turn 75 Singhai and I had two cities, while Ottomans and France (whose settlers I kept taking) had one each. By turn 100, Songhai had 4, france 3, Ottomans and me 2. By turn 145, Songhai had 7, Ottomans and I had 5, and France 4 (after another war with me cost some more settlers.
Florence attacked me with 2 knights, 2 trebs, and 4 pikes, all at once. That seems beyond the pale - my militaristic aly only had 5 units at the time, but I survived this as well.
CS that have been at war with each other don't make peace after the AI and I do. By war, I mean actually fighting... as opposed to at war half a continent apart. The latter do make peace, as expected.
I mentioned in the Diplomacy Bug thread that when I counter on certain deals, the AI responds as if I'm offering peace (when there's no war). I doubt this has to do with this mod, but thought I'd mention it.
rhammer640
Russian Monk
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2010
- Messages
- 386
changes look great! Im excited to try them out, especially after txurce's comments regarding his play. Is it possible to look into things like making open borders and stuff actually improve relations?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
One factor that would influence this is France has the 'ruthless' characteristic with TBC active. Ruthless leaders build significantly more units than peaceful ones, and attack more readily. When combined with WWGD (which gets the AI to attack better) you'd get the behavior described above. You're going to see it most from the five leaders with the 'warmonger' personality type below, since they devote no resources to citystates either:
In addition all citystates start with 2 warriors and 1 archer in TBC.
Txurce
Deity
Thal, thanks for the Leader Personality Sheet. I had checked it myself, and found that Id been hassled by two of the Five Bullies. In this Immortal game, my closest neighbor Spain immediately pointed out that I was puny, and became hostile. The conclusion Im drawing is that I will always legitimately be a nearby, tempting target, and will almost certainly be attacked before 2000 BC. This makes it harder to take a NC-first start, but theres nothing wrong with that on the highest levels.
Someone entered the Classical period on turn 3, which gave me a jolt.
Thal mentioned that CS start with two warriors and an archer. It seemed that one of them had five units almost right off the start. I found nothing wrong with that, though 0 just factored it in.
The major effect of the Happiness adjustment in this mod is that the AI does not roar out of the gate building like crazy, thereby allowing for different human start strategies (with the limitations mentioned in the first paragraph). The slower start did not affect eventual AI expansion.
Cities (3 AI civs on my continent)
Turn 50: 3, 2, 1
Turn 75: 6, 4, 2
Turn 125: 10, 8, 1
Gold was also not affected at all. There was plenty of competition for CS alliances in the mid-game, although it inexplicably fell away for the rest of the game. Everyone seemed to have as much gold as ever, including much more than could be spent by the late game. I think part of this is due to Thals recent RA change, which inevitably limits research spending.
My scientific spending was reduced to zero when a beaten Spain asked for a DoF, then denounced me shortly thereafter when I defended myself against Rome. This is the only example in the game of senseless AI diplomatic behavior. Otherwise, everyone responded as they should, with warring going on at some level throughout the game on both continents. (This is a major change from v3).
As long as the AI responds appropriately (Spain screwed up my research here), I think Thals RA change greatly elevates diplomacy, and is a tremendous improvement to the game.
Happiness was affected to some degree, although within the norms I tend to encounter.
Cities/Happiness
Turn 125:
10/-3
8/5
5/0
1/43
Size/Happiness (based on 7 surviving civs)
Turn 290:
#1/-4
#2a/-28
#2b/50
#2c/14
Note that three civs with almost identical land size had drastically different happiness levels. I actually like that.
In conclusion, as I already said elsewhere, these mod combinations GS nerfing, DoF RAs, Leader personality differentiating, AI happiness rebalancing, and a more rational political AI have blown the roof off vanilla Civ 5. Four cheers for Thal, Sneaks, Seek and Alpaca!
Someone entered the Classical period on turn 3, which gave me a jolt.
Thal mentioned that CS start with two warriors and an archer. It seemed that one of them had five units almost right off the start. I found nothing wrong with that, though 0 just factored it in.
The major effect of the Happiness adjustment in this mod is that the AI does not roar out of the gate building like crazy, thereby allowing for different human start strategies (with the limitations mentioned in the first paragraph). The slower start did not affect eventual AI expansion.
Cities (3 AI civs on my continent)
Turn 50: 3, 2, 1
Turn 75: 6, 4, 2
Turn 125: 10, 8, 1
Gold was also not affected at all. There was plenty of competition for CS alliances in the mid-game, although it inexplicably fell away for the rest of the game. Everyone seemed to have as much gold as ever, including much more than could be spent by the late game. I think part of this is due to Thals recent RA change, which inevitably limits research spending.
My scientific spending was reduced to zero when a beaten Spain asked for a DoF, then denounced me shortly thereafter when I defended myself against Rome. This is the only example in the game of senseless AI diplomatic behavior. Otherwise, everyone responded as they should, with warring going on at some level throughout the game on both continents. (This is a major change from v3).
As long as the AI responds appropriately (Spain screwed up my research here), I think Thals RA change greatly elevates diplomacy, and is a tremendous improvement to the game.
Happiness was affected to some degree, although within the norms I tend to encounter.
Cities/Happiness
Turn 125:
10/-3
8/5
5/0
1/43
Size/Happiness (based on 7 surviving civs)
Turn 290:
#1/-4
#2a/-28
#2b/50
#2c/14
Note that three civs with almost identical land size had drastically different happiness levels. I actually like that.
In conclusion, as I already said elsewhere, these mod combinations GS nerfing, DoF RAs, Leader personality differentiating, AI happiness rebalancing, and a more rational political AI have blown the roof off vanilla Civ 5. Four cheers for Thal, Sneaks, Seek and Alpaca!
Txurce
Deity
PS:
I started a new game and found myself with China as my only close neighbor. They have ignored me, rather than becoming hostile due to my puniness, so I've built the NC first. At turn 55, with expansionists America, England and Russia on the continent as well, everyone has two cities except for me.
Also of note to me is that when a luxury is pillaged, the deal (GPT, OB) is canceled.
I started a new game and found myself with China as my only close neighbor. They have ignored me, rather than becoming hostile due to my puniness, so I've built the NC first. At turn 55, with expansionists America, England and Russia on the continent as well, everyone has two cities except for me.
Also of note to me is that when a luxury is pillaged, the deal (GPT, OB) is canceled.
PlyPlay665
First King of Persia
Well, I downloaded this mainly just for the AI happiness thing, but when I play the game, in the beginning I still have significantly lower happiness than all the other Civs. It says V5 got rid of it, while the post below it says that there are still happiness bonuses. I assumed it was just an outdated problem? Can someone help explain why they still have higher happiness levels?
Another thing I have noticed is that they have very large building bonuses, and it doesn't even give me a fighting chance in building wonders. They also seem to have large bonus in Science also, as when I had only two Science Techs, the other Civ I was playing against had 4. Is this part of WWGD? As also, I installed Procylon's Call to Power Project at the same time.
I really like all the other bonuses that come with this, but I'm not sure, it just seems to give the AI's a much bigger bonus than before. I play on Prince, I could try to play on an easier level, but still.
Another thing I have noticed is that they have very large building bonuses, and it doesn't even give me a fighting chance in building wonders. They also seem to have large bonus in Science also, as when I had only two Science Techs, the other Civ I was playing against had 4. Is this part of WWGD? As also, I installed Procylon's Call to Power Project at the same time.
I really like all the other bonuses that come with this, but I'm not sure, it just seems to give the AI's a much bigger bonus than before. I play on Prince, I could try to play on an easier level, but still.
Re: the happiness thing: Just a piece of text I need to update!
The bonuses I added are not much bigger than vanilla ones. The AI can still maintain better happiness due to its ability to construct happiness buildings easier, its tendency to trade luxury resources efficiently, etc. As for the science lead, in the base game, the AI receives free technologies on higher levels to start. I did nothing to change this rate, but the building bonuses will obviously help in their library construction, etc. My goal was to make the AI play fair while making the AI harder in total.
In vanilla I played at beat Deity easily, so one thing I am hoping to accomplish with this mod is making Deity and Immortal especially a harder but rewarding challenge. As you play the game, feedback on any ideas or changes will be greatly appreciated.
The bonuses I added are not much bigger than vanilla ones. The AI can still maintain better happiness due to its ability to construct happiness buildings easier, its tendency to trade luxury resources efficiently, etc. As for the science lead, in the base game, the AI receives free technologies on higher levels to start. I did nothing to change this rate, but the building bonuses will obviously help in their library construction, etc. My goal was to make the AI play fair while making the AI harder in total.
In vanilla I played at beat Deity easily, so one thing I am hoping to accomplish with this mod is making Deity and Immortal especially a harder but rewarding challenge. As you play the game, feedback on any ideas or changes will be greatly appreciated.
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