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What Would Gandhi Do? - AI Rebalancing Mod

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Mod Components' started by Sneaks, Dec 23, 2010.

  1. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I played Greece on Immortal/standard/continents, so as to have an edge while competing for CS in pursuit of a diplomatic victory. I settled in the north and took three SPs in Tradition before moving on to all but two in Patronage and then three more in Rationalism. I decided to take the NC-first route, but managed to put up six mostly mediocre cities that gave me a monopoly on wines and allowed me to seal my borders.

    China Songhai and India were on my continent, with Songhai behind the others. India atypically expanded rapidly all game long, but was friendly. Everyone was friendly – even early on when I skated on thin ice with a barely existent military. Once my finances leveled off I began to sign up the local Maritimes (one at a time, three in all), then added the two off-continent after Astronomy. I had enough gold to sign R.A.’s constantly, and they helped a lot until the last batch of six, none of which put me closer to Globalization. (I didn’t use the one-turn research exploit.) I was friends with every civ on the map all game long, although I only gave Open Borders to those offshore, and mostly got 300g for my wine.

    Although I had plenty of gold all game along with the Greek and Patronage advantages, the other civs made me pay regularly to regain my Maritimes, as they periodically paid to break my alliances. No one ever complained about my bribing their alliances until once at the very end.

    The four civs in the other continent fought constantly, eventually killing England. Songhai and China fought an early war where China took a city, and that was it. However, Songhai and particularly India (who built the Manhattan Project) started attacking CS. India apologized for attacking Singapore (mine), then backed off several turns later, even though the war was going pretty well.

    Later India attacked Stockholm (also mine). It was on a peninsula, and I managed to block passage. After many turns India culture-bombed the tile I was on – nice, huh? I was shifted to the CS capital… and then I paid 50g for Open Borders and blocked him for the rest of the game.

    By the time I built the UN, no one had built Apollo, and the later-game wars were cranking up. France, who was first in gold, had been trading Ragusa with me, and unknown to me taken another Maritime. The turn before the vote I bought every independent CS. The AI ordered after me, with France complaining then outbidding me for one, while China outbid me for another. Final result: 13 votes out of 15 possible on turn 263 (1765).

    I enjoyed the modded game a lot, and attribute the unearthly total peace to my starting location and a little luck as much as I do to the mod. Should someone have come after me (blocking Ghandi in Stockholm aside)? Probably not, because I was near the bottom in pop, army, and score… but my units were always balanced and upgraded.

    I don’t know to what degree the competition for the CS was influenced by the mod. I would propose that, if possible, CS be wooed not just with gold but with defensive pacts – and that the human be allowed to bargain with the AI for peace regarding a CS that the AI is fighting. This happens occasionally, but not all the time.

    With regard to compatibility with other mods, it's possible that Thal's mods still nerf CS gold deals in favor of buffing quests. If so, this may throw off what both of you are intending.

    EDIT: I didn't use any other mods in this game.

    I'm looking forward to further changes, and to playing it again.
     
  2. Stuie

    Stuie Laudir Agus Mir

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    I've only played a little bit. 12 Civs on a Standard continents map with low sea levels. Everything thing else is default, Prince difficulty. I'm playing Napoleon.

    It's turn 55 and I've met five Civs. Interestingly, three of them think I'm trying to win in the same manner as they are. Attitudes thus far:

    England: Neutral
    + Freed captive (aren't I nice)
    - Trying to win the same way

    Hiawatha: Hostile
    - Trying to win the same way
    - Covets my lands

    Alexander: Friendly
    + He wants to be my friend.

    Pachacuti: Neutral
    - Trying to win the same way
    - Covets my lands

    Egypt: Friendly
    + He wants to be my friend.

    Now what's interesting is that fact that my 2nd and 3rd cities were pretty close to Egypt (5 tiles from Thebes and then 3 tiles from his border) and he did warn me, but nothing negative has popped up. Pachacuti on the other hand warned me and then I got the covet land modifier, and I can't even see his borders yet! Not sure what that's about.

    Anyway, let me know if reports like this help or what would help and I'll be happy to post as time permits. I'm off for the next week and a half so time should permit quite a bit. :)
     
  3. Sneaks

    Sneaks Brooklyn Bum

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    That type of info is incredibly useful, Stuie. The more game information I have, the better I can judge what the AI is doing.
     
  4. Isikien

    Isikien WHOA

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    Just wondering, what is your plan for victory? Do you have an idea yet? Might want to gauge how sensitive the AI is to your intentions (this early, I doubt it isn't very much)
     
  5. Stuie

    Stuie Laudir Agus Mir

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    Then I'll keep it coming. :)

    Ok - had to start a game on a different computer because the brother-in-law is staying in my study.

    Same set up (12 Civs on a Standard continents map with low sea levels. Everything thing else is default, Prince difficulty) but I went random Civ and got Askia.

    After 50 turns I've met four Civs and four City States.

    Civs:

    Russia - Friendly
    + Declaration of friendship
    + Declaration of friendship with same leader

    Ottomans - Friendly
    + Declaration of friendship
    + Declaration of friendship with same leader

    India - Neutral - close borders (two hex separation)
    No incidents

    France - Hostile - close borders (two hex separation)
    - Covets lands I control

    Not a very eventful game thus far.

    I'll report on both games as I switch between computers.
     
  6. Stuie

    Stuie Laudir Agus Mir

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    No idea. Apparently the AI knows what I'm doing better than I do! :lol:
     
  7. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    Sneaks, is it possible to change those "same victory" messages? For one, it can be immersion breaking, and if they could be changed to be more specific they might actually be informative. For instance, Ghandi would tell you "Your culture is becoming a nuisance" and Biz would say "It looks like you're planning to take over the world".

    Just a thought; the mod looks great, I look forward to trying it!
     
  8. Stuie

    Stuie Laudir Agus Mir

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    Back to this game now.

    Turn 103 finds me at war with Egypt and the Iroquois. They didn't like when I settled my fourth city - I was getting the "Building new cities" negative from them, but that went away when they declared war. I would note that other than my rapid expansion and perhaps some "close settling", I have done nothing very antagonistic.So here's how things stand:

    England: Guarded
    + Freed captive (aren't I nice)
    - Trying to win the same way
    - Covet lands
    - Favor of same city state

    Hiawatha: War
    - We're at war
    - Denounced us
    - Ignored settle lands warning (I did pick the "we'll settle where we like option" :) )
    - Trying to win the same way
    - Covets my lands

    Alexander: Friendly
    + He wants to be my friend.

    Pachacuti: Neutral
    - Build new cities too aggressively
    - Covets my lands
    (the "win the same way" negative is gone)

    Egypt: War
    - We're at war
    - Denounced us

    I think Egypt was flipping between attitudes at one point - had one positive, then two negatives, then one positive all in a matter of one or two turns. Didn't document it though so I can't be sure. I'll keep a better eye on this going forward.
     
  9. Sneaks

    Sneaks Brooklyn Bum

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    Honestly not sure how to approach the issue yet. Honestly, I pretty much hate it as an AI weight, because it is even less immersive than the AI being mad about you trying to win. I will probably alter the values next version to at least drop the hostility at lesser certainties. From what I can tell, I think the AI takes into account your production/gold/science yields as proof of victory condition. Not really sure, but if this is the case, it would explain the ill informed reasoning it makes.

    I am very divided right now as to whether I should simply eliminate the mechanic or alter it into something else. If I did eliminate it, I would probably ratchet up the hostility for being close to victory to compensate.
     
  10. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Most reasoning this early is probably ill-informed, and therefore pointlessly provocative. About all that makes sense to me at this stage would be the AI preying on perceived weakness, or reacting to units on the border and expansion issues.

    In interpreting my game, keep in mind that only France had the gold to challenge me for the Diplo victory.

    More interesting to me is that the only cross words I heard all game were Napoleon on the very last turn complaining about my bribing a CS. While I can explain it, it seems so extreme that I may try to duplicate it.

    I was also curious about how the altered happiness mechanic would work. I have never had the opportunity to complete as many RA's, and this is what kept me current for most of the game. But other than the AI benefiting to some degree from my research contribution, they had no added edge in their research, yet managed to stay on the same rough pace I've seen on Immortal post-patch: the opportunity to win in the early 1800s. In my experience, this seems to be the target era when there are no runaway civs. In my prior game, when Rome and Egypt were far ahead, Egypt was in Future Tech in the 1600s. I'm looking forward to more testing with regard to this.
     
  11. Isikien

    Isikien WHOA

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    King difficulty, playing as Hiwathwa. Dunno what the map type is but it looks like continents. Standard size ofc.

    I've only met one neighbour and a ton of city states

    Genghis Khan:

    + Friendly
    • Allied with two city states
    • On top of this the two city states he's allied with are cultural
    • Had built two wonders (TGL and THG)
    • Had lots of social policies as of Turn 125 (3 in honour, 1 in tradition)
    • Has two cities total
    + We desire friendly relations with your empire

    Turn 46: Genghis chews me out over having soldiers near his borders (soldier count was 3, tile distance was about 8)
    I was destroying barbs. I tell him not to worry.

    Turn 58: Genghis tells me off for settling lands 'he considers his'. Incidently it was the same area my soldiers were in
    when he repremanded me for being near his borders. He considered my second city too near. I apologise for doing so in order
    not to take a diplo hit. Around this point he also desires friendly relations.

    Turn 92: Genghis now believes that I am building cities too aggressively. I may've tripped this threshold a couple of turns before that
    by building my 4th city, though this wasn't near his location. He is still friendly by this point.

    Turn 94: Genghis dials me up and offers me a research agreement. I accept.

    Turn 118: Genghis offers me open borders. I turn him down.

    Turn 124: As soon as the first one ended, Genghis asked for another research pact which I signed. Around this time
    I noticed that me building too many cities didn't matter to him anymore.

    General observations:

    - Wonders are going much quicker, probably due to difficulty increasing AI prod.
    - There has been one denouncement so far and two declarations of friendship
    - Genghis bizzarely looks like he's going for an early culture game. A cultured genghis, who'd thunk it?

    More when I find time to play
     
  12. Sneaks

    Sneaks Brooklyn Bum

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    Great observations so far. Once the holiday nonsense calms down a bit, I will get back to getting this bad boy updated.
     
  13. Grathocke

    Grathocke Marquis

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    After reading all this, I am going to give WWGD another try. I played one game with it and everyone I met seemed to go from neutral or friendly to hostile in a heartbeat, and I don't think it was anything I did. Anyway, I'll try again and let you know if the same thing happens.
     
  14. Leoben

    Leoben Chieftain

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    I don't think the diplomacy of the vanilla game is that unbalanced, but it sure could use some finetuning like what you are trying to do woth this mod. I like a lot of your ideas (DoF meaning more to the AI, helping the AI to choose policies which are right for the victory it's looking for) but I kind of fear that other changes could go wrong, like nobody going for a domination victory, for instance.

    I've stumbled on this thread and find it quite interesting:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=404780

    I'm going to suggest some changes based on this, I don't know if it's doable or not, just food for thought:

    (possible diplomatic modifiers : low, minor, medium, major, highest
    -We have a DoF (making it more important, you've already done it; last a few turns after the end of a DOF)
    -We have a DoF with the same people (medium positive modifier; lasts as long as the DOF with the other people is true)
    -We denounced the same people (low positive modifier for 50 turns)
    -You freed their captured citizens (low positive modifier for 50 turns)
    Additions to positive modifiers:
    - You're at war with the same people (major positive modifier as long as the war is going)
    -You agreed to a request after a DoF was made (medium positive modifier every time)
    -We have good trade deals (low positive modifier at every trade)
    - You offered us something even though we're not friends (minor positive modifier)
    -You accepted to go at war with us against somebody else (major positive modifier)
    - You liberated us from another civ (highest positive modifier)

    -They covet land of yours (medium negative modifier)
    -They covet wonders you built (low negative modifier)
    -You're expanding to agressively (major negative modifier - cannot happen if you've liberated the civ or if it's at war against one of your enemy)
    -You denounced them (highest negative modifier)
    -They denounced you (highest negative modifier)
    -You refused a request after making a DoF (low negative modifier)
    -Your friends found reason to denounce you (medium negative modifier)
    -You denounced a friend (low negative modifier)
    -You demanded the not settle near you (medium negative modifier)
    -You broke a promise to not settle near them (medium negative modifier - cannot happen if you've liberated the civ or if it's at war against one of your enemy)
    -You're a warmonger (major negative modifier - cannot happen if you've liberated the civ or if it's at war against one of your enemy)

    Just some ideas, please tell me if it sounds interesting to you. :)
     
  15. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I played another Immortal/standard/continents game with the same goal: to avoid war while trying for a diplomatic victory. This time I chose Arabia, for its strong economy.

    The game proved to be much harder than my prior Greek one. I intended to go the NC-first approach, but quickly discovered that Russia and Rome were my neighbors, with France, Japan and America also on the continent. I switched to a REX approach, settling four relatively distant cities that gave me a sugar monopoly and a port. Two cities were well-balanced; one lacked production, the other food. From then on I tried to balance a credible military with Maritime acquisition.

    I gave no one on my continent Open Borders, and learned it has no effect on relations. I expected trouble from Russia, because I had her sealed off on a large peninsula, so I became friends with Rome. I also snatched a 6-iron tile away from Moscow for 265g (two tiles), and this probably kept Russia from attacking at least until muskets and Cossacks. By then we had been trading for a long time and I eventually denounced a civ she had denounced. All that said, I think the mod deserves some credit here.

    Everyone else on the continent was fighting. America was hostile for one turn, then attacked someone else. France eventually became hostile, due to my Friendship with Rome. At some point I goaded him with demands, just to see what would happen. By the time Japan and Rome were conquered by France and America around 1700, it was clear that I was next. I didn’t want to count on my small army of infantry and older units. So although I broke an agreement with Russia to DOW France (a negative on the diplo), I then paid France 210g to attack America. That distracted them both, and eventually I DOW’s America as part of an agreement with Russia. ( I never engaged in any military action.)

    By the time I was almost done with the UN, Russia had declared war on France, and France had made peace with America. I watched the fighting, saved my gold… and saw that as world war consumed the map, there was a race for CS alliances that was trimming my vote total.

    I made the decision to wait until the last turn to buy back my old allies, as well as some new ones. This steadily knocked my happiness down until it hit –16 with 3 turns to go. I would only get one shot at the UN. So I bribed myself up to 9, then borrowed another 1500g from England for 66gpt. That put me at 11, all at the expense of France. I then declared war on France, preventing him from bribing back any of my new CS allies. I won with 11 votes in turn 292 (1844).

    After playing two games of no-war, I can say that it seems the AI isn’t researching as fast as some runaway civs I’ve encountered post-patch, and that remaining at peace is very possible. None of this seems unbalanced, although the presumed AI tech slowdown might make the game a little easier. Also, seemingly no one has attempted to go for a diplomatic victory in either game. However, that could be due to who was in the game, and whether or not they were in the running at the end.

    In my next modded game I won’t shy away from war, and will try to forge a game-long alliance with one or two other civs. I’ll also use the Balance mods alongside and look for conflicts, particularly with regard to CS.
     
  16. Isikien

    Isikien WHOA

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    Genghis -
    Guarded
    Allied with three city states
    On top of this two of the other city states he's allied with are cultural
    Had built many more wonders
    Had lots of social policies as of end of round (4 in honour, 1 in tradition)
    Has two cities total
    -We have been at war
    -We covet your lands

    Nobunaga -
    Friendly
    HAS A BOATLOAD OF CITIES (8!). Kinda expected, I remember what Oda was like post-patch
    No alliances
    Protecting Florence
    Two social policies (Tradition only)
    +Desires friendly relations

    Darius
    Neutral
    Protecting Rio De Janerio, Brussels and Florence
    Tiny. Only two cities I believe.
    Three social policies (Tradition only)

    Turn 134: Genghis allies with Genoa (Maritime)

    Turn 136: Genghis redevelops his (-You are settling cities too aggressively) modifier again. I just culture bombed
    a city state. Any relation?

    Turn 139: Genghis yet again loses that negative modifier and desires friendly relations, offering open borders again.
    I decline.

    Turn 143: I meet Oda Nobunaga. On the same turn I trade gold for silver with him. I also open borders with. He is North West
    of my position, across a channel.

    Turn 147: Met Darius, who was very advanced at this time (In reinassance era, while everyone else seemed to be medieval)

    Turn 148: Japan denounces Persia. Persia comes with the begging bowl, asking for me to join him in war. I tell him I have
    no interest.

    Turn 151: Japan + Persia sign a research agreement.



    Why

    Turn 156: Mongols ask for another trade agreement. Lagging behind in tech in comparison to Persia, I accept.

    Turn 163: Oda and I declare our friendship as per his request.

    Turn 166: I was getting annoyed at Genghis blocking my culture expansion with his scout units sat on my borders, so I opened borders with him. This is a bug I really feel needs addressing, the governer should automatically expand and eject soldiers of another culture as it sees fit. I had a mongol scout sitting in my lands for goddamn ages

    Turn 167: Mongolia allies with the last goddamn city state on my continent, effectively creating an ad-hoc Golden Horde.

    Turn 172: Mongol DECLARES. His city states join in. I'm not liking where this is going...

    Turn 177: OK. There is a lot I have to go through on this one.

    Mongol had me on the ropes. He surprised me with a dagger DoW and had enough siege and units to grab a city. He had much more advanced melee troops and I had a far weaker military.

    He also had the city states on his side, and they were walking over my lands harrassing me.

    So he had my city surrounded, and was definately going to take it (he had weakened it enough. His units were insta healing per turn as well). I only managed to kill a handful of outdated and weaker units (pikemen, archers)

    On that same bloody turn, Mongolia offers me a peace treaty, giving me marble (his only luxury), lump sum gold, gold per turn and open borders, asking for nothing in return.



    No really what. I literally double taked. I accepted it of course

    General observations:

    - This one's a given. An AI makes an incredibly clever strategic and tactical move, then undoes it by ******g turning around and declaring peace. But not just any peace, peace that wasn't in his favour. Why.jpeg. WHY! I don't even know how to explain this. His power rating was higher, his troops were better, he had my city surrounded and cut off, there's no such thing as war weariness. PICK ONE OUT OF A MULTITUDE OF REASONS AS TO WHY YOU SHOULDN'T DECLARE PEACE IN A ONE-SIDED WAR.

    The AI's schitzoid nature still exists. I have no clue what's causing this, but I really recommend you take a look into it.
    One moment I had Genghis Khan, warlord of a thousand tribes, bearing down on my doorstep mercilessly with conquest reflecting horrifically in his eyes. The next moment Genghis is hijacked by ******g Neville Chamberlin's spirit and spitroasts Mongolia's hope at world domination by offering me their entire treasury and their entire marble statue collection.
    - AI definately covets city states more
     
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I really enjoyed your account.

    I don't think the border block is a bug... or to put it differently, I've had my own guys pushed back by the AI's cultural expansion quite often.

    Weirdly, I have almost never been offered one of those outrageous, undeserved peace treaties. I know they occur - I just tend to get the opposite (no favorable terms no matter how successful I am). Regardless you are dead right that what happened in your game is criminal. I have no idea whether that can be modded at this point.
     
  18. Leoben

    Leoben Chieftain

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    I happen to also be on the side of the "no favorable terms even if you are surrounding my last city". Fixing this (absurd peace treaties) could be an interesting direction for this mod too as the story with Genghis Khan was sad. :(
     
  19. V. Soma

    V. Soma long time civ fan

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    This.
     
  20. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    Civ really needs a mechanic like Europa Universalis where provinces are only occupied when you take them by force and you have to sign a peace treaty to get them legally. This is so much more immersive and fun that I'm really surprised that I haven't found it in any other games so far. Basically, the winner of the war gets to see that he won in a peace treaty (he gets some of the cities he took) while the loser still has very significant bargaining chips.

    Of course, it should have some failsaves: When you occupy a city for a certain amount of time, a "might makes right" should be possible but with negative temporary diplo modifiers with other civs. You should be able to fully annex another civ when you completely occupy them but this should incur a very heavy diplomatic penalty. While a city is occupied it should create war weariness.
     

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