Whats the best use for a Great Scientist?

[obsolete]

Every time I build an academy, the tech increase on my bar shows barely an increase of a hair. I refuse to waste them this way anymore.

 

[shivute]

building academies in multiple cities is a bad idea. The only time you want to build academy is in your good science city AND you should build it (if you want to build it that is) before ~ liberalism Building academy after that is not good because immediate lightbulbing is more effective. In my opinion, the only time you should actually build academy is if you have a really good early science city. Settling them in cities as SS is even worst.
so basically lightbulbing > academy > settling
someone already mentioned, lightbulbing is much more effective (in fact required on high levels) where you need to catch up and can’t really wait for academy to do that.

I 100% agree with everything here.
Bulbing is a necessity on emperor and above.
SS is a waste of time, though I do sometimes like to add a spare GP to a commerce city.

 

[Wodan]

Agreed, except I think settling a SS in your Oxford/Academy city is better than an Academy in a second city.

The real question is whether settling a SS is better than lightbulbing, at any point. There are a lot of issues to consider in that debate.

Wodan

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

In a prior post, someone said they had gotten to 800-1000 beakers/turn in one city by using many SS and Lib/Univ/Academy/Oxford. Is this possible? I'm not trying to flame the guy, but it seems so unlikely. And if it is possible, why would you guys be slamming the SS option?

 

[shivute]

There are far too many variances which effect the decision on whether to SS or bulb.

Good luck if you plan a debate.

I don't think an agreed solution would come easily or be even possible.

 

[Thedrin]

Difficulty level would also have to be accounted for. As the AI gets more bonuses some of the traits and tactics available to the player become less feasible. What works on prince might not work on emporer. What works on diety may not be the best course on nobel.

 

[MrCynical]

In a prior post, someone said they had gotten to 800-1000 beakers/turn in one city by using many SS and Lib/Univ/Academy/Oxford. Is this possible? I'm not trying to flame the guy, but it seems so unlikely. And if it is possible, why would you guys be slamming the SS option?

Actually it's possible without SS if you really wanted to bother with this. For absolute maximum science output in one city I reckon you'd go for:

1)Capital, for bureaucracy
2)Cottages, which assuming 100% science will give a better output and stack with bureaucracy.
3)Free Speech
4)Academy
5)Oxford
6)Free Speech to boost cottages
7)Representation to boost any merged great scientists.

So, in a capital with 20 cottageable tiles thats 140 base commerce with free speech, plus 8 for the palace, plus lets say another 12 for trade routes (with 20 cottages it can't be coastal). +50% from bureacracy gives 240 commerce to be converted to base beakers.

Now with an academy, library, university, observatory, lab and Oxford that's +250%. So 3.5*240 gives 840 total beaker output, which gets into the bracket you're aiming at.

Now this wouldn't be till the very late game, and it's fairly rare for your capital to be able to support 20 cottages, but piecing it out with great scientists at 31.5 beakers a time (or 29.25 prior to the lab), this could certainly be possible.

Agreed, except I think settling a SS in your Oxford/Academy city is better than an Academy in a second city.

Generally this is quite a simple issue to figure out, with little that's really debatable. Do you have a city with more than about 70-80 base commerce, or 50-60 if you're not running or going to run Representation? If so, an academy there is worth more than a superspecialist anywhere. This assumes that you're running a reasonably high, though not maxed science rate. At 100% the cut off's at about 60 or 40 without rep. You have to make some allowance for what your science rate is, and how it will vary, but there shouldn't really be any case in a game where this is that debatable.

The real question is whether settling a SS is better than lightbulbing, at any point. There are a lot of issues to consider in that debate.

Without question there are points where it is better to settle an SS than to lightbulb. Where the offered immediate tech/tech boost is not either tradeable or useful, it is better to take the long term bonus in the earlier stages of the game. Difficulty level is also a major factor. Lightbulbing is really at its best from Prince to the lower end of Immortal difficulty level, when you can generally trade for something to boost the effective beaker gain. Below Prince the AI rarely has anything to trade. At high end immortal and deity games, even with careful lightbulbing, you're very unlikely to get a tradeable tech, simply because the AI will be so far ahead.

 

[drkodos]

The real question is whether settling a SS is better than lightbulbing, at any point. There are a lot of issues to consider in that debate.

Wodan

Being the dogmatic, instant-graitificationist I am, I say it is almost always better to lightbulb. It can never be a bad thing to get an instant tech. It may not always be the most optimal use, but it is always immediate.

In my oversimplified world, I make the choice between tactics now or strategy later and I almost always go with tactics.

 

[Wodan]

Generally this is quite a simple issue to figure out, with little that's really debatable.

Are you buying the beer? As you guys know, I'll debate just about anything.
If necessary, I can even switch sides back and forth, just to keep things suitably lively.

Wodan

 

[kcbrett5]

In my current emperor level game, I lightbulbed one to speed along the research of printing press. As a result, I was the first to get printing press and immediately traded it for 5 other techs. So in this case, lightbulbing one tech was far and away the best use for me. At this point in the game, I already had an academy in my great library super science city.

 

[kcbrett5]

Lightbulbing is really at its best from Prince to the lower end of Immortal difficulty level, when you can generally trade for something to boost the effective beaker gain. Below Prince the AI rarely has anything to trade. At high end immortal and deity games, even with careful lightbulbing, you're very unlikely to get a tradeable tech, simply because the AI will be so far ahead.

Help me out here. Please explain the difference between a high end immortal game and a low end immortal game. My version of civ only has one option for choosing immortal level. Is yours an import?

 

[UncleJJ]

Help me out here. Please explain the difference between a high end immortal game and a low end immortal game. My version of civ only has one option for choosing immortal level. Is yours an import?

He is probably taking into account factors such as leadership traits, map type, map size, game speed all of which can make a game at any difficulty level easier or harder. He might include things like the resources at the starting position which can have a huge effect and are determined by luck.

 

[MrCynical]

Help me out here. Please explain the difference between a high end immortal game and a low end immortal game. My version of civ only has one option for choosing immortal level. Is yours an import?

As UncleJJ has already suggested, at any given difficulty level there are a number of factors which will vary how difficult the game actually is, and how effective any given strategy is. In this case I was taking a fairly simple line that lightbulbing works best when the AI has tech to trade and is willing to do so. In my experience in virtually all deity games the AI is so far ahead that even lightbulbing does not allow tech to be acquired before the AI, and hence it is not tradeable.

While this is also true in some Immortal games, it is not always the case. Say for example one game I draw a leader with Agg/Exp, lousy terrain, and I'm up against Mansa Musa. In that game I'm likely to be so far behind even lightbulbed tech will already have been discovered by the AI. That I'd class as a high-end Immortal game. A low end might be, say, a Fin/Cha civ with a gold/floodplain start, and I'm up against a bunch of the AI also-rans. While I'll probably still be behind, it'll only be a couple of techs behind, so i can lightbulb tech and trade it.

 

[jray]

If you're going for a cultural victory, then plopping academies in your 2 best non-capital cities isn't such a bad idea... especially if you can get them before 800 AD or so, since their culture value will double every 1000 years (and 1800 AD is approximately when it starts to really matter).

EDIT: <snip> (cut out stuff about doubling again 1000 years later, since drkodos pointed out it's incorrect-- thanks!)

 

[drkodos]

If you're going for a cultural victory, then plopping academies in your 2 best non-capital cities isn't such a bad idea... especially if you can get them before 800 AD or so, since their culture value will double every 1000 years (and 1800 AD is approximately when it starts to really matter). The +8 (or +16 if by 200 BC, or +32 if by 1200 BC, etc.) culture is a windfall for that race to Legendary, after being multiplied by cathedral bonuses!

Incidentally, I wonder if it's possible to get an academy by 3200 BC... maybe beeline to Writing and use as many specialists as possible. Can you imagine a +128 culture academy at 1800 AD?!?

I thought that culture doubling for aging happens once, not repeatedly?

 

[jray]

I thought that culture doubling for aging happens once, not repeatedly?

Oops, you're probably right... I just realized that this is all just a fantasy in my head, and not verified by actual playing . I'll edit my post so that I don't stir up trouble.

But I do stand my ground that +8 culture is very nice if you're going for Cultural victory, possibly outweighing the alternative usages of those early GS's... but I suppose only if you can make those 2 cities into half-decent science cities too... preferably one of them being your primary science city.

 

[UncleJJ]

1)Capital, for bureaucracy
2)Cottages, which assuming 100% science will give a better output and stack with bureaucracy.
3)Free Speech
4)Academy
5)Oxford
6)Free Speech to boost cottages
7)Representation to boost any merged great scientists.

So, in a capital with 20 cottageable tiles thats 140 base commerce with free speech, plus 8 for the palace, plus lets say another 12 for trade routes (with 20 cottages it can't be coastal). +50% from bureacracy gives 240 commerce to be converted to base beakers.

Now with an academy, library, university, observatory, lab and Oxford that's +250%. So 3.5*240 gives 840 total beaker output, which gets into the bracket you're aiming at.

Now this wouldn't be till the very late game, and it's fairly rare for your capital to be able to support 20 cottages, but piecing it out with great scientists at 31.5 beakers a time (or 29.25 prior to the lab), this could certainly be possible.

I agree with all you've said ... except of course you can't run Free Speech and Bureaucracy at the same time Maybe assuming Finacial recovers half your losses and a few rivers help too.

Most players that make a city that outputs circa 1000 beakers rely on an inordinate number of settled scientists. If you can run Caste System and Pacificism for long enough, then 15 or even 20 GS can be made in an easy game. Each of those will add 31.5 beakers to the final output as you say. It can be fun to make a city like that for those so inclined but is not something that is worthwhile in a competative game where score is important.

 

[cabert]

If you're going for a cultural victory, then plopping academies in your 2 best non-capital cities isn't such a bad idea... especially if you can get them before 800 AD or so, since their culture value will double every 1000 years (and 1800 AD is approximately when it starts to really matter).

EDIT: <snip> (cut out stuff about doubling again 1000 years later, since drkodos pointed out it's incorrect-- thanks!)

academies don't double their culture output, stonehenge generated obeliks don't see their culture ouptut doubled, and there mus t be some other exceptions too, though i can't think of anything else right now

 

[dime]

In a prior post, someone said they had gotten to 800-1000 beakers/turn in one city by using many SS and Lib/Univ/Academy/Oxford. Is this possible? I'm not trying to flame the guy, but it seems so unlikely. And if it is possible, why would you guys be slamming the SS option?

That sounds highly unlikely... Personally, around 450 beakers/turn in a city is the most I've managed, but I am not a very advanced player...

However - fat cross has 20 tiles + city tile... if you had a Town on each, a financial leader, printing press, free speach, then each town would yield 9 GP I think... if half have a river, it'd be 9.5 GP... then, the BASE commerce would be 192.... add academy (50%), 3 monasterys (30%), Library (25%), Laboratory (25%), Observatory (25%), University (25%), Oxford (100%) and you'd theoretically be at around 540 beakers... settling 8 SS in that city would add another 9*8*2.8 = 200 for around 740 beakers... now, IMO, this is a utopian city and I would be surprised at seeing it actually exist... of course, if you assume it is all floodplains, you could conceivably also have a couple of Science Specialists to push it further...

The point to consider, however, is that this type of city will be very rare and only produce this type of output very late in the game... and it'd mean using ALL GPs you get as part of the process...

Now - even when playing a specialist economy game, I tend to burn ALL my GPs on tech... there are a couple of exceptions - for Great Prophets, the useful techs quickly run out, so they will most often be settled for money. And, the GE will usually be used to build a wonder if there are any specifically interesting one (Pyramids, Great Library, Statue of Liberty)... but when you use a GP for a tech (assuming this is a bit into the game), it instantly gives you 1200-2400 "beakers"... settling a GS as a super specialist gives you 9 base beakers, which, even under the best circumstances would be maximum 9x2.8+3 (assuming representation) = 28 beakers per turn... so, you'd need 45-90 turns to reach a similar result... now, 60 turns a bit into the game is around 500-600 years in the game [NOTE ALL TURNS AND BEAKERS AND SO ON REFER TO PLAYING ON EPIC - NOT SURE WHETHER THIS IS DIFFERENT AT OTHER GAME SPEEDS] and I just feel getting the tech earlier is often paramount... I mean, in the early game, getting relatively early access to either of Code of Laws (for courthouses), Currency (for markets+trade route) or Metal Casting (for production) is easily more worth than getting an academy that - at this point - likely bumps one city from 30 beakers to 45 beakers per turn

/Andreas

 

[JimT]

Every time I build an academy, the tech increase on my bar shows barely an increase of a hair. I refuse to waste them this way anymore.

I don't know if it still true but I remember realising that this bar does not update until the end of the turn. I can't confirm that this hasn't been fixed but I imagine it wouldn't since no one has suggested it is a priority.