What's the problem with Islam, anyway?

[Ayn Rand]

What's the problem with Islam, anyway?

Big part of the problem is that many people haven't met many Muslims personally, so they derive their judgement from what they see on the media. And the media doesn't have a habit of reporting: "Hard working Muslim comes home to his loving family".

And we all know that if the media isn't reporting it, it doesn't exist.

The problem with Islam is the relentless army of apologists who make invalid arguments about individuals to avoid tackling the subject. If we change the term to any other ideology:

"Big part of the problem is that many people haven't met many Nazis personally, so they derive their judgement from what they see on the media. And the media doesn't have a habit of reporting: "Hard working Nazi comes home to his loving family".

We see that this argument is completely irrelevant and does not excuse human rights abuses, poor scientific output of Islamic countries, oppression of women, jihad or any of the other many problems about Islam that you seek to avoid by digressing into personalisations.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The problem with Islam is the relentless army of apologists who make invalid arguments about individuals to avoid tackling the subject. If we change the term to any other ideology

You know Ayn. I'm going to reply to you this once, after this you better shut the hell up about your apologist bullcrap otherwise you aren't worthy of replying anymore whatsoever.

All right?

We see that this argument is completely irrelevant and does not excuse human rights abuses, poor scientific output of Islamic countries, oppression of women, jihad or any of the other many problems about Islam that you seek to avoid by digressing into personalisations.

Of course this has already been answered: Although you can argue this is a cultural/regional problem and not necessarily to do with Islam

Ta da!

Question, imagine Christianity had been the leading religion in the parts where these abuses occur, do you really believe those abuses wouldn't have occurred?

Question: how many muslims do you know personally who engage in human rights abuses?

 

[useless]

More "Muslim hive-mind" thinking, i have no doubt most muslims are against such things. Plus half of those can attributed to their cultural practices/differences.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ayn, get a load of this:

http://www.twocircles.net/2007sep19/study_domestic_violence_more_common_among_hindu_families.html

Bangalore: The incidence of domestic violence is higher for Hindu women than Muslim or Christian women, during pregnancy, according to a study published in the latest issue of Journal of Affective Disorders.

The study of 203 Bangalore women of different faiths was conducted by National Institute of Mental Health and Neuro Sciences. The study involved interviewing each woman to find out about violence against them when they were pregnant.

Physical, psychological and sexual coercion by force was identified as violence that is detrimental to the physical and mental health of pregnant women. Therefore a study into factors that lead to this violence can help in protecting women against domestic violence.

Various factors like age, education, income, religion, number of people in the household were considered in this study and except for religion, there were no significant differences in any of these sociodemographic variables among the abused and non-abused women. Study found that abuse was more common among Hindu families than Muslim or Christian families. 19% of Hindu women reported violence as opposed to 8% of other faith, a significant difference. Result even surprised researchers but no explanation was offered to explain this difference.

Alcohol use by husbands was also common in families where women were abused.

Now the sample size is very low, the method of research quite subjective, but the same for all women questioned. But you need less of this to get started about Muslims. So, where's your Hindu outrage?

 

[Ayn Rand]

You know Ayn. I'm going to reply to you this once, after this you better shut the hell up about your apologist bullcrap otherwise you aren't worthy of replying anymore whatsoever.

All right?
Of course this has already been answered: Although you can argue this is a cultural/regional problem and not necessarily to do with Islam

Ta da!

Question, imagine Christianity had been the leading religion in the parts where these abuses occur, do you really believe those abuses wouldn't have occurred?

Question: how many muslims do you know personally who engage in human rights abuses?

What do you expect when all we hear from the left-wing is "there's no problem here, move along folks - hey, it was equally bad in Europe in the 12th Century..." etc etc, ad nauseum.

I don't need to "imagine that Christianity was in charge..." or "look at the hard-working muslim man" or any other one of the thousand pieces of irrelevant nonsense that constitute the smoke-screen of denial and avoidance.

Islam is a religion that in many places is extremely oppresive, violent, anti-scientific and downright unpleasant. When I see a spade, I call it a spade. When I see an oppressive ideology, I call it an oppressive ideology. It's the truth so deal with it.

So, where's your Hindu outrage?

I detest the Hinud caste system. I was reading an article in the NYTimes today saying that Southern Indians who rejected the caste system and embraced democracy and capitalism are now far richer than their northern counterparts.

Point is: getting rid of oppressive superstitions is essential and necessary for progress. No matter how much people whine about it, it needs to be done. The benefits are worth it, history has shown that democracy, capitalism and science are essential stages for civilisation to develop.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So in effect you won't address my post, you rather repeat your drivel without being able to back it up.

What a surprise.

 

[spryllino]

But it isn't Islam causing the problem. Look at sub-Saharan Africa. Look at the new hopophobic legislation in Uganda and the mess in Zimbabwe and the trail of messes throughout the continent. The whole area is in a state of abject poverty, and not only Muslim countries have barbaric legislation justified by religion, but Christian countries have them too.

And yes, you're talking drivel and not backing it up.

 

[Gangor]

The problem with Islam is the relentless army of apologists who make invalid arguments about individuals to avoid tackling the subject. If we change the term to any other ideology:

We see that this argument is completely irrelevant and does not excuse human rights abuses, poor scientific output of Islamic countries, oppression of women, jihad or any of the other many problems about Islam that you seek to avoid by digressing into personalisations.

I don't see the problem here: Radical Islamism to be sure is rather nasty as Nazism is, but lacks it's relevance because it has no way to project itself upon the rest of the world save the odd bombing.

Besides, radical Islam isn't really that much different to radical Christianity, it's just that the west is largly a Christian society* and thus the anger of radical Christians is rarely directed towards it. Radical Christianity is usually expressed internationally as support for Israel - exactly what pisses the radical Islamists off.

*By this I mean that it's laws and traditions are generally based upon Christian values.

 

[Ayn Rand]

So in effect you won't address my post, you rather repeat your drivel without being able to back it up.

What a surprise.

No, why don't you deal with any of the hundreds of facts about the Islamic World that are in the public domain - human rights reports, sharia law, jihadist terrorism, lack of democracy, very low scientific output and so on.

These are not drivel - they are objective facts and they paint an extremely worrying picture. Islam is the common denominator and the motivating force behind a consistent picture of information that suggests oppression and backwardness in the name of religion.

 

[spryllino]

Christianity is equally evil; the only difference is that few enough people take it at its face value for it not to cause a problem in most Christian countries. Large amounts of the Bible are completely brimming with barbaric laws too.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

No, why don't you deal with any of the hundreds of facts about the Islamic World that are in the public domain - human rights reports, sharia law, jihadist terrorism, lack of democracy, very low scientific output and so on.

I dealt with them ... twice already.

I can't help you fail to read my posts.

These are not drivel - they are objective facts and they paint an extremely worrying picture. Islam is the common denominator and the motivating force behind a consistent picture of information that suggests oppression and backwardness in the name of religion.

No, region, local politics and culture is the common denominator. There are non-Islamic countries where the same crap is happening.

 

[useless]

Basically you are saying that these people are savages, but hiding it under the guise of criticising Islam

 

[Ayn Rand]

Christianity is equally evil; the only difference is that few enough people take it at its face value for it not to cause a problem in most Christian countries. Large amounts of the Bible are completely brimming with barbaric laws too.

True, but that is not a counter-argument but rather supports what I am saying. Besides which, in Europe, we spent centuries fighting against that evil - and much of the fighting was done by Christians and between Christians. It was only the eventual rise of the Protestant church that allowed England to become an industrialised democracy.

The Islamic World has not gone through such a process. The Church and State are not separated in many Islamic countries, and there is direct political interference by theocrats who make decisions about law, society, education and individual rights.

Islamic political parties see it as their duty to interfere in the State and to impose their vision on society, limiting freedoms and controlling every aspect of an individual's thoughts and daily lives. Islam is structured in a way that cannot help but limit individual free expression - it is inherently oppressive.

No, region, local politics and culture is the common denominator. There are non-Islamic countries where the same crap is happening.

Please point out one non-Islamic country in the World that is as wealthy as Saudi Arabia and still a dictatorship.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So, I decided to check this Islam is the common denominator claim

http://www.guardian.co.uk/rightsindex/

The top twenty worst offenders: Amnesty reports
Congo

Roman Catholic 55%
Protestant 35%
Muslim 5%

Rwanda

Roman Catholic 56.5%
Protestant 37.1%
Islam 4.6%

Burundi

Roman Catholic 62%
Indigenous 23%
Islam 10%

Algeria

Almost all Algerians muslims follow Sunni Islam, with the exception of some 200,000 ibadis in the M'zab Valley in the region of Ghardaia

Sierra Leone

Islam 60%
Christianity 30%
Indigenous religions 10%

Egypt

Egypt is a predominantly Muslim country with Islam as its state religion. Around 90% are identified as Muslim

North Korea

Both Koreas share a Buddhist and Confucian heritage and a recent history of Christian and Cheondoism ("religion of the Heavenly Way") movements. The North Korean constitution states that freedom of religion is permitted.[139] According to the Western standards of religion, the majority of the North Korean population could be characterized as irreligious. However the majority are defined as religious from a sociological viewpoint[140] and the cultural influence of such traditional religions as Buddhism and Confucianism still have an effect on North Korean spiritual life.

Sudan

Sunni Islam 70%
Animist 25%
Christianity 5%

Indonesia

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation, with 86.1% of Indonesians declared Muslim according to the 2000 census.[89] 8.7% of the population is Christian,[122] 3% are Hindu, and 1.8% Buddhist or other.

Yugoslavia

Yugoslavia had always been a home to a very diverse population, not only in terms of national affiliation, but also religious affiliation. Of the many religions, Islam, Catholicism, Judaism and Protestantism as well as various Orthodox faiths composed the religions of Yugoslavia, comprising over 40 in all. The religious demographics of Yugoslavia have changed dramatically since World War II.

Pakistan

Pakistan is a democratic parliamentary federal republic with Islam as the state religion.

China

The "official" orthodox faith system held by most dynasties of China since at least the Shang Dynasty (1766 BC) until the overthrow of the last dynasty (1911 AD) centered on the worship of Shangdi ("Supreme God") or "Heaven" as an omnipotent force.[49] This faith system pre-dated the development of Confucianism and Taoism and the introduction of Buddhism, Islam and Christianity.

[Someone else may complete the list if they want, I've got places to be. It's saturday damnit!

Libya


Burma


Iraq


Afghanistan


Iran


Yemen


Chad


Congo (Republic)

Please point out one non-Islamic country in the World that is as wealthy as Saudi Arabia and still a dictatorship.

 

[spryllino]

True, but that is not a counter-argument but rather supports what I am saying. Besides which, in Europe, we spent centuries fighting against that evil - and much of the fighting was done by Christians and between Christians. It was only the eventual rise of the Protestant church that allowed England to become an industrialised democracy.

The Islamic World has not gone through such a process. The Church and State are not separated in many Islamic countries, and there is direct political interference by theocrats who make decisions about law, society, education and individual rights.

Islamic political parties see it as their duty to interfere in the State and to impose their vision on society, limiting freedoms and controlling every aspect of an individual's thoughts and daily lives. Islam is structured in a way that cannot help but limit individual free expression - it is inherently oppressive.

That doesn't demonstrate any such thing. The fact that some Christians in the West have ceased to be quite so barbaric merely indicates that it is possible for even the most barbaric religions to have civilised adherents, and thus it shows that Islam cannot possibly be causing all the Middle East's problems (which is what you seem to be suggesting).

 

[Ayn Rand]

@Ziggy

Rwanda, Congo, Burundi, Sierra Leone - some of the most violent, war-torn countries in the World that only came out of Stone-age tribalism in the last century. This is your barometer for saying that Islam is not oppressive?

Oh wait... the totalitarian dictatorship of North Korea makes some Islamic countries look good.

So Islam is not the sole cause of oppression [as we all knew anyway] - other things such as ethnic genocide, civil war and totalitariaism can make a country as bad as an Islamic one.

Sorry, but is this an argument in favour of Islam? If so, it is lost on me how this can in any way be construed as a positive thing - the only way you can make Islam look good is by comparison to stone-age tribal societies that commit mass genocide against each other.

That doesn't demonstrate any such thing. The fact that some Christians in the West have ceased to be quite so barbaric merely indicates that it is possible for even the most barbaric religions to have civilised adherents, and thus it shows that Islam cannot possibly be causing all the Middle East's problems (which is what you seem to be suggesting).

The oppressiveness of Islam is not demonstrated by historical analogies or theoretical discourse - it is demonstrated as true or false by the behaviour of Islamists in Islamic countries today. That is, purely and simply, the only real-World metric of any validity. With such a metric, we can judge whether Islam, as it currently stands, is or is not an oppressive religion.

Don't worry - it's just a "cultural difference".

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

Islam is hated for several reasons:

1) Zionists hate Islam since muslims oppose the occupation of the middle east. Unfortunatly zionists have a lot of control over the media.

2) Muslims are conservative. They oppose globalisation, the banking elite and its values. They want a traditional society. A true islamic society can never be ruled by the elite in the west.

3) Muslims are a very visible group of immigrants. They are also ok to critizise since the elite is anti islam. Therefore people troll muslims but forget problems with other immigrant groups.

Personally I like Islam. Islam is conservative, anti globalisation and anti zionist. I however see Islam as an arabic thing and I don't want it to spread to other regions since it would be a threat to the local culture.

 

[Tee Kay]

Yes... ignore all other historical, economic, social, cultural and political factors. All the ills and evils in Islamic countries are the result of Islam...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

@Ziggy

Rwanda, Congo, Burundi, Sierra Leone - some of the most violent, war-torn countries in the World that only came out of Stone-age tribalism in the last century. This is your barometer for saying that Islam is not oppressive?

No, this is me defending my point that (for the 4th time ) region, local politics and culture are far more important factors than religion (which is only part of a culture).

This is me debunking your claim that Islam is some common denominator.

Oh wait... the totalitarian dictatorship of North Korea makes some Islamic countries look good.

. <---- My point


<--- you

So Islam is not the sole cause of oppression [as we all knew anyway] - other things such as ethnic genocide, civil war and totalitariaism can make a country as bad as an Islamic one.

No, no, no, no. You claimed that Islam is a common denominator for that crap. Don't shy away now mate.

Sorry, but is this an argument in favour of Islam?

No!

Jesus. Am I accidentally posting Swahilli?

What word in this sentence do you not understand? I'll be happy to clarify.

So, I decided to check this Islam is the common denominator claim

If so, it is lost on me how this can in any way be construed as a positive thing - the only way you can make Islam look good is by comparison to stone-age tribal societies that commit mass genocide against each other.

The point dear Ayn Rand is that that list destroys your previous claims. That is the only point and there is nothing more to it. I'm not in it to defend Islam, I'm in it to point and laugh at ridiculous claims whether they be about Islam, politics or best tv-show.

I don't are about Islam, Christianity, Hinduism or any other religion An Sich, only arguments made about them which can be demonstrated to be false.

 

[Ayn Rand]

This is me debunking your claim that Islam is some common denominator.

How does the genocide in Burundi prove that Islam doesn't slow scientific output or free speech in the Middle East? I've clearly missed your point.

I'm guessing that you are trying to make some kind of argument about cultural relativism, but you're going to need to tie genocide in Africa to Islam in a little more of a concrete way for me to understand your masterful destruction of my evil lie that Islam consistently impacts science, freedom and human rights in a negative way.

I don't are about Islam, Christianity, Hinduism or any other religion An Sich, only arguments made about them which can be demonstrated to be false.

The argument that Islam is not oppressive is demonstrably false. You managed to assemble some data in that list of human-rights abusing countries, now turn off the blinkers and analyse what is right in front of you.