What's your religion?

[GoodSarmatian]

so.. one must ask why do they get immune? (i know the answer, but i would like you to explain it in your words)

My own words are not english, but I'll try.
They simply get immune because some of them have received an immunity to certain toxines from mutations which always occur due to a somewhat inaccurate replication of their DNA (happens all the time, the code is quite tolerant to little variations). If you expose thepopulation to this toxine the non-immune majority will die and the remaining immune microorganisms will multiply faster with less competition for resources.

and IS natural selection the exact same as evolution?
simlpy, no.

Not exactly the same, but evolution is a logical consequence of natural election (or vice versa, whatever).

so what exactly is evolution? (i know the answer, but i would like you to explain it in your words)

Evolution is in a nutshell the adaption of a species to a new or changed environment (the immune microorganisms I mentioned were already adapted to the new poisoned environment and thus survived) by variations of their genome. If enough of these variations "stack" the species as a whole is altered (or rather extinct, because their decendads are another species by then.)
Apes will start to cut their hair, put on clothes and talk about evolution.

 

[Pbhead]

I believe in God, not in religions.

hmm...

please, explain.

 

[pi-r8]

Seems like whenever someone says that he's an atheist, an argument breaks out over whether or not there's a god. I'm gonna stay out of this, but I gotta say that as an atheist myself, it's really annoying when people blithely assert that "obviously you can't prove there is or isn't a god." I mean, cmon people- that's half the argument!

 

[Underdawg]

I believe in God, not in religions.

Thanks for typing for me.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

You can't proof the aren't invisible purple unicorns. They are invisible after all...

 

[Pbhead]

My own words are not english, but I'll try.
They simply get immune because some of them have received an immunity to certain toxines from mutations which always occur due to a somewhat inaccurate replication of their DNA (happens all the time, the code is quite tolerant to little variations). If you expose thepopulation to this toxine the non-immune majority will die and the remaining immune microorganisms will multiply faster with less competition for resources.

I must say that you are wrong.

the microbes become immune because of dna that was dormant, is brought out. much the same way your parants might have brown eyes, yet you might have blue eyes.

the code does have variations, but none of these mutations have ever been helpfull in any observed organism. (observation, the missing link for evolotion in the scientific method)

Not exactly the same, but evolution is a logical consequence of natural election (or vice versa, whatever).

infact natural selection curbs mutations weeding out those that are unhealthy due to a problem in their code(and then the screwed up code is used to try and do what it was supposed to do (create a enzime or whatever) and then the object is flawed, being useless to the organism), microorgaisms fornd in old egyption tombs are practicly identical to their counterparts that have gone through 1000's of genorations.

Evolution is in a nutshell the adaption of a species to a new or changed environment (the immune microorganisms I mentioned were already adapted to the new poisoned environment and thus survived) by variations of their genome.

that is not evolution, that is natural selection. variations of their genome is not the genome changing. If the genes physicaly change (mutate) in a GOOD way, that is evolution, but that has never been observed.

hmm... does this make sence to you? i am leaving a few points and examples that would strengthen my points out simply becasue i am getting tired if they are needed i will add them later (you would think evolotion would have gotten rid of the need for sleep by now. )

 

[Pbhead]

I mean, cmon people- that's half the argument!

half the arguement for what?

athiesm is not the belief that you cant prove there is a god.
athiesm is the belief that there is no god.

i will continue this very intelectual conversation when i wake up, please feel free to continue to post, but i cant currently answer to your posts. and to private message me if you wish.

 

[Sharule]

Im Jewish(Orthodox, if were getting specific.)

 

[pi-r8]

half the arguement for what?

athiesm is not the belief that you cant prove there is a god.
athiesm is the belief that there is no god.

Right. And Agnostisism is the lack of a firm conclusion about whether or not there's a god. I can see why people might argue over whether it is correct to be religious, atheist, or agnostic; what annoys me is when people simply assume that agnoticism is the only logical position without any argument. If you can argue over whether or not there's a god, you can also argue about whether it's possible to prove that there is or is not a god.

 

[Graadiapolistan]

I will say that nothing can be proven. Perhaps everyone's senses decieve them into seeing squirrels, when there really never were, or are, any squirrels. There's no way to disprove that, because we rely on proof from our senses. We must take certain things for granted, for example, that we see what we see. Also that just because we can't prove something ourselves doesn't mean it can't be proven. We know that there are microbes everywhere, we take it as a fact, but at this very moment I can't prove that I'm surrounded by mocrobes because I can't see them (or sense them in any other way), and even if I could, there's no way to prove that what I see is real.

I don't want to have to explain evolution to anyones (just google it, or go on Wikipedia), but I can say confidently that is as much of a fact as the fact that the Earth is round. Look at intelligent design, that's just God applied to evolution. Even Christians are now believing in intelligent design.

We know evolution happened (and is happening) as much as we know anything. We don't know, however, how it happened, or if it was driven by some unknown force.

Personally, I think that there is no God. There are many things that I consider proof of that. (Once again, google it, I don't want to spend a lot of space listing my personal qualms with the existance of a deity.) But for those that say that atheism is a religion, you are wrong. Science can't disprove that there is a god because it is impossible to test everything everywhere at once. (If there is a god, it would have some effect on the universe at some point, so in order to find it, everywhere would have to be tested.) Basically, for an atheist to say there is no God, it is like someone saying that the world is not being run by invisible gnomes. To an atheist, everything can be explained logically, and therefore the only belief held is that of the laws of nature. An atheist does not specifically not believe in God, but believes that there is no supernatural. To include atheism as a religion would be ludicrous. There is no belief required to be an atheist. No more of a belief than it takes for a Christian to not believe in Kami or Muhammed. An atheist does not actively disbelieve in God, but passively believes and accepts the laws of nature and logic.

 

[SoxSexSax]

Atheist. How can you possibly believe in something that you have never seen?

Unicorns are exactly as likely to exist as god. As are dragons. As are pixies. As are goblins. There's precisely the same amount of hard evidence for each.

 

[Willowmound]

An Atheist believes God does not exist, even though there's no proof. A belief.

Heh heh. That's like saying, "since you have no proof an invisible leprechaun isn't living in your sock drawer, saying one isn't there is a belief."

(Edit: I see GoodSarmatian made a similar point...)

 

[Willowmound]

atheism is not marketed to the public as being not a religion, but it is the religion of the belief of no god (atheism has "theism" in it...)

Theism, from Greek theos, "god". Atheism, from Greek atheos, "no god".

 

[Sohan]

Heh heh. That's like saying, "since you have no proof an invisible leprechaun isn't living in your sock drawer, saying one isn't there is a belief."

(Edit: I see GoodSarmatian made a similar point...)

That's because it is. You believe there isn't an invisible leprechaun, because it seems reasonable to you that there isn't one, and unlikely that there is, based on past experiences and your accumulated knowledge, cobbled together via rationality. Still a belief.

 

[drkodos]

Atheist. How can you possibly believe in something that you have never seen?

Unicorns are exactly as likely to exist as god. As are dragons. As are pixies. As are goblins. There's precisely the same amount of hard evidence for each.

I am offended if you are telling me that faeries do not exist.

Did you not read the good book: FAERIES? That book makes it very clear that they do exist and exactly how we are to behave. Anyone that cannot accept this book and its teachings is dooming their entire perpetual existence.

People that think that faeries do not exist are lost and need to find their way. Chances are they are unhappy in their lives. If only they would embrace the Faeries that love them and want to help them and take them to a better place after they leave this earthly vessel.

SoxSexSax, please remember that Faeries love you, no matter what you say or do and will always be there for you when you are ready to recieve them.

I will now say a few words to the Faeries in your benefit.

We are all one under the Faeries.

That's because it is. You believe there isn't an invisible leprechaun, because it seems reasonable to you that there isn't one, and unlikely that there is, based on past experiences and your accumulated knowledge, cobbled together via rationality. Still a belief.

Sohan: some us do not believe anything. We have actual knowledge. I hope one day you can accept it, but I feel, from the rhetoic you choose, you are not quite ready to even see the proof.

How do you feel about naked singularities? You know, Black Holes? Have you seen one? I have. The Hubble telescope has shown it to us. BUT ONLY IF YOU KNOW HOW TO LOOK AT THE DATA AND HAVE BEEN PROPERLY EDUMACATED.

Are you experienced?

I am.

 

[Sohan]

Replace Faeries with God and you'll understand drkodos' point, which is a good one. Although I believe in God, I'm not going to pretend that there's hard evidence for it. That's why it's called faith. 'Cause we believe something without need of the evidence.

 

[Cosmichail]

Interesting debate., I am a Christian and respect all religions including those that do not have one. I notice that when persons discuss religion or lack thereof it becomes a heated debate. I sense a polemic nature to many of the posted messages. Drkodos you are intelligent in your observations however I sense a sore spot when it comes to religion. Did religion do something to you in your youth? If you are an Atheist then so be it, it is what you see and logically can deduce. To be personal about religion means that something happened to you to cause you to feel this way. My personal experience with church/religion hasn't always been positive but I do not hold the "Father" responsible for such things. Humankind has twisted the truth and a day will come when we will know the whole truth about everything.

As to science there are many new things found out and more discovered that makes our existence even more perplexing. For example "String Theory" is something that is quite incredible that there are many universes and we could be standing right next to someone from another universe and not know it. Like the fish in the pond analogy so are humans just embarking on new discoveries, other dimensions that science is beginning to theorize. So complex is it that we as a civilization are just scratching the surface. A class 0 civilization we are and still have a long way to go. There is a comment made that caught my attention

but believes that there is no supernatural.

I have experienced supernatural forces in my lifetime numerous times. I am an older person of 48 years and have come across some rather scary and enlightening supernatural forces. I am person that likes to be logical and cool headed but have to say to not believe in the supernatural would mean that all the talk of ghosts/Mothman/Aliens/ and many other rather bizarre events which are numerous wouldn't even make you wonder?

Drkodos I just wondered about your avatar. Isn't that Charlton Heston?
He played Moses in the ten commandants and I believe (not certain) is a Christian. I am not a fan of him since he showed such insensitivity to the Columbine incident. NRA anyone? However no disrespect meant towards you choosing this avatar maybe it's you and you really look like Moses.

One last comment in my years I have learned persons must learn to respect one another and not get personal. It makes for poor debate as emotion tends to make people say things they wouldn't in person. Don't forget we are all people here and by showing respect we can accomplish more than disagreeing and getting personal.

EDIT: Drkodos I too am interested in quantum singularities and am fascinated by it. If I was to tell you I have seen proof of His existence you wouldn't believe me. I wish not to elaborate in a public forum but it is what I have seen and that is that. There are so many different understandings each human being has a reality unto themselves. In order for us to all get along we must find a way to deal with each other in a Gentlemen's manner. Religion will never disappear as people have fought and died for it in countries where it was forbidden to have the ability to believe in a higher power. It has done harm as well as it has done good. Without the organization of religion the world would be chaotic. We cannot be on our own and accomplish much for that we need an organized civilization. Even the Romans as organized as they were had religion to bring the people together. It is a need for humans to seek out a higher being to connect with the spirit. In fact I believe that Religion has failed many by presenting dogma rather than enlightenment but it still does not remove for me the higher power that exists.

 

[Truronian]

Ignostic. I think the question of the existance of God is irrelevent as it does not and cannot affect us in any way.

I generally say agnostic/atheist when asked this question, as they essentially sum up my views.

 

[SoxSexSax]

I am offended if you are telling me that faeries do not exist.

Did you not read the good book: FAERIES? That book makes it very clear that they do exist and exactly how we are to behave. Anyone that cannot accept this book and its teachings is dooming their entire perpetual existence.

People that think that faeries do not exist are lost and need to find their way. Chances are they are unhappy in their lives. If only they would embrace the Faeries that love them and want to help them and take them to a better place after they leave this earthly vessel.

SoxSexSax, please remember that Faeries love you, no matter what you say or do and will always be there for you when you are ready to recieve them.

I will now say a few words to the Faeries in your benefit.

We are all one under the Faeries.




Sohan: some us do not believe anything. We have actual knowledge. I hope one day you can accept it, but I feel, from the rhetoic you choose, you are not quite ready to even see the proof.

How do you feel about naked singularities? You know, Black Holes? Have you seen one? I have. The Hubble telescope has shown it to us. BUT ONLY IF YOU KNOW HOW TO LOOK AT THE DATA AND HAVE BEEN PROPERLY EDUMACATED.

Are you experienced?

I am.

In all honesty, I would be far more ready to believe in the existence of faeries than the existence of God. At least faeries aren't assumed to have ultimate power over the universe.

I mean please, people, get a grip. Back in the ancient times when science couldn't explain lightning, why droughts occur, why earthquakes happen, why apparently healthy people sometimes die while very sick people can make full recoveries etc. people NEEDED to believe in God. When you can't explain what is happening with the knowledge you have, it is NATURAL to believe a more powerful being is controlling it at will. Natural and perfectly understandable as well.

Thing is, we've unravelled all those mysteries. We know that the tectonic plates move, causing earthquakes. We know that atmospheric pressure and friction in the air causes lightning. We know that a person who appears healthy can still have a nasty disease inside them, and that some diseases make you seem far closer to death at points than you actually are etc. And yet people still cling to the notion of God.

I'm sorry if I have offended, it is not my intention. I am simply putting forward my (exteremely abridged) logical case for how Man created God, not the other way round.

 

[SoxSexSax]

Even the Romans as organized as they were had religion to bring the people together. It is a need for humans to seek out a higher being to connect with the spirit. In fact I believe that Religion has failed many by presenting dogma rather than enlightenment but it still does not remove for me the higher power that exists.

The Romans used to believe drinking your own urine was the cure for soooo many diseases. I think anything they had to say on the subject of God can be safely discredited.