When do I want to build a workshop?

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Whats so special about 10s compared to 9s? Or 8s, 7s, 6s, 5s?

Players are more likely to stay in with Paint than Pips.

 

[obsolete]

10s?

Whats so special about 10s compared to 9s? Or 8s, 7s, 6s, 5s?

Stop being a fish you donkey!

All straights need either a five or a ten.

 

[licker]

Players are more likely to stay in with Paint than Pips.

A meaningless distinction to the original question. [kinda like something else going on here?] Beyond which players are likely to stay in with 3 connectors regardless or rank. And yes, players would be likely to stay in with A, K, Q (well fishy players anyway), but not because they are looking for straights, especially if they already see a 10 on the table, furhter, if that 10 raises (which is pretty likely if you're rolled) they are going to assume at least a reasonable probability of another 10 underneath.

But again, all this discussion is completely beside the point.

Stop being a fish you donkey!

All straights need either a five or a ten.

Not what you said. The same number of potential straights need a 9 as a 10.

Rolled up 10s is better than rolled up 4s, but the use as a straight blocker is not the reason. Rolled up Ks is even better, and I'm sure you couldn't care less about the fact that they block 60% fewer potential straights.

 

[CivCorpse]

Once there was this boy who
Settled all his specialists inside of the capital
And when he went to war
He shook and nuked all over the game board
He couldn't quite explain it
He'd always just done that

Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm

A man once built a dwelling,
Soon it started swelling.
His neighbors did frown,
When it was a town.
And over the borders his troops came yelling

 

[obsolete]

Not what you said. The same number of potential straights need a 9 as a 10.

I don`t think you understand yet. Any straight which requires a piece of broadway, can not be made without a 10.

If you remove all 5`s and T`s in a deck of cards, how many straits do you think you can make.

I`ll give you a hint. The answere is ZERO.

If you strip out all the 9s, you can still make lots of straights.

Rolled up 10s is better than rolled up 4s, but the use as a straight blocker is not the reason. Rolled up Ks is even better, and I'm sure you couldn't care less about the fact that they block 60% fewer potential straights.

In a multi-way pot, where many hands are drawing out against you, the rolled tens takes the lead. This is because you are only 2-1 for filling up. The TTT has more equity because when it fails to fill, it often doesn`t need to as the high straits can`t be made (unless the case ten hits someone). As for the other draw (flush), if someone makes it then you will lose just the same with TTT as with KKK.

 

[licker]

I don`t think you understand yet. Any straight which requires a piece of broadway, can not be made without a 10.

If you remove all 5`s and T`s in a deck of cards, how many straits do you think you can make.

I`ll give you a hint. The answere is ZERO.

If you strip out all the 9s, you can still make lots of straights.


In a multi-way pot, where many hands are drawing out against you, the rolled tens takes the lead. This is because you are only 2-1 for filling up. The TTT has more equity because when it fails to fill, it often doesn`t need to as the high straits can`t be made (unless the case ten hits someone). As for the other draw (flush), if someone makes it then you will lose just the same with TTT as with KKK.

Oh, I get it just fine. You said 10s bust the most straights. That is clearly incorrect. 10s bust the most 'likely' straights? Maybe, depends on the level of the players you are facing.

Then you say take out all the 10s and 5s and you bust more straights than if you take out 9s??!?1?1?

Seriously....

You posted something clearly incorrect, without massive assumptions to justify it, I just found it humorous in the vein the thread had taken. No worries.

As to prefering rolled 10s to rolled Ks...

Well again, if you're playing slot machine poker (where no one folds) then you will value the handicap the straight chasers will face (but realize that in slot machine poker 5s-9s are as good at straight blocking as your 10s). Otherwise, you will take the Ks 100% of the time. Seriously, against real players if they see a raise from a K they will be more likely to dump than from a 10 with their marginal hands. As I said, anyone with 3 connectors is already going to assume you have at least 2 10s (or 2 bigger wired cards) and adjust their straight draw probabilities anyway.

Of course they may play more straight draws against your K bet, but honestly... that's what you want them to do anyway.

Again, its nice to just say 'in a multiway pot', but with anything rolled you should be pumping and pushing so that there isn't a multiway pot, no matter what you have rolled. If a couple people chase you with straight/flush draws so be it, you're still the favorite with the most EV from the hand.

 

[obsolete]

Hmm, I don't know how else I can explain the obvious. But then again, if everyone was a poker pro, there would be no suckers in it.

There is a good reason why TT is considered a PREMIUM pair, and a 99 is not. Chip already explained this in his footnote in SSI about what, 30 years ago?

I suggest you re-read the book.

 

[licker]

Hmm, I don't know how else I can explain the obvious. But then again, if everyone was a poker pro, there would be no suckers in it.

There is a good reason why TT is considered a PREMIUM pair, and a 99 is not. Chip already explained this in his footnote in SSI about what, 30 years ago?

I suggest you re-read the book.

Stop being a . .. .. .. ..

We're not talking about pairs even. I made an incredibly pedantic observation on your bogus statement, and you continued to step in it.

Do you really think the main reason TT is better than 99 is because it blocks more straights? Are you talking about Holdem now or still Stud?

Sort of like, how starting with rolled-up Tens in 7-stud blocks most of the potential straights.

9s block the same number of straights as 10s. Unless you are assuming that the opposition always calls your raise with any 3 mixed face cards, since they can clearly see that they are already drawing dead to at least one 10.

 

[stormyorky]

Sorry if im beeing a necromancer, bringing a dead thread back to life.

I am playing/struggling on monarch, and I *never* build workshops! They just arent in my reportoire when im playing civ4.
When Im runnign a cottage economy, im having 3 types of cities; cottage cities, gp cities (1-2) and production cities.

Cottage/commerce cities are full of cottages and sufficient farms to feed the city. No workshops. All post-jungle grassland cities become cottage cities in my games.

gp cities. Sometimes capital wonderspamming and/or a city with plenty of food. Can be a city with 3 food resources and/or floodplains.

production cities. These are non-grassland cities, with at lest 1 food resource and hills for mining, and the odd stone/iron/copper/marble city that has average land but built for the resource.

The only kind of cities that I can see beeing workshop cities are the grassland ones, the kind that I like to cottage. These are often in the jungle area, so they often has gem/silk/dye/ivory that has good symbiosis with commerce-leveraging buildings like markets/universities/etc.

So what I need to practice is
*to spot the kind of city sites that fit better for workshop then cottage
*to know when I have enough commerce cities and need more production cities empire-wide
*at what point in the game that I want to create these kind of cities

Any help is appreciated.

 

[Ibian]

Grassland is just as good for workshops as it is for cottages. It just depends what you need. You will usually have some grassland or at least plains in your normal production cities anyway, what do you do with those?

 

[stormyorky]

If I have grassland in a normal prod city, I usually farm it, so that I can work more mines.

If i have abundant food and have reached health cap in a prod city, I remove pop working plain/grassland farms and turn them into engineer(s).


I have not yet learned at what point I dont need more cottage cities and instead need a "workshop city" on jungle city sites. Besides the "all-grassland" city sites are limited on most maps.

 

[DaveMcW]

Biology Farm = 1 engineer = 2

State Property Workshop = 3

SP Workshop + Caste System = 4

 

[vale]

Biology Farm = 1 engineer = 2

State Property Workshop = 3

SP Workshop + Caste System = 4

3.3 Hammers and 4.4 hammers for the last two. The 10% bonus is relevant right?

 

[DaveMcW]

3.3 Hammers and 4.4 hammers for the last two. The 10% bonus is relevant right?

Only if you can prove that the 10% bonus is superior to giving up corporations.

 

[stormyorky]

My narrowmindness doesnt stop at not building workshops, I never use SP either. Or caste.

I usually go slavery->emancipation or slavery->serfdom->emancipation (seldom)

And
mercantilism->free market or just free market straight from decentralisation.

I just feel I gain so much from free market, and my playstyle doesnt leverage caste system (i can run enough specialists in my 1-2 gp farms from buildings/wonders)

So as you can see its more to it then just a question of tile improvement. I need to learn a new style of play.

 

[vale]

Biology Farm = 1 engineer = 2

State Property Workshop = 3

SP Workshop + Caste System = 4

Only if you can prove that the 10% bonus is superior to giving up corporations.

Well, you did say SP in both of those examples. So the assumption is you have given up the corporation already right?

 

[vale]

The nice thing about SP though relative to corporations is that it requires no thought to use. You can freely trade away all your excess seafood. You don't have to go crazy trying to buy up duplicates of resources. You just adopt it and forget about it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The nice thing about SP though relative to corporations is that it requires no thought to use. You can freely trade away all your excess seafood. You don't have to go crazy trying to buy up duplicates of resources. You just adopt it and forget about it.

It becomes a practical necessity for heavily-expanding warmongers. The FP helps for intercontinental expansion, but SP is far superior.

I don't get what's so hard about using workshops (caste vs slavery debates aside). You put them in cities where you want but you don't have enough hills for mines. Starting with caste/guilds they are your substitute mines. Anybody trying to specialize multiple cities to "production" will probably need these to optimize hammer output...

IMO the civic choices and timing of workshops are far more difficult than where to put them, and are too game dependent to give one answer to.

 

[DaveMcW]

Well, you did say SP in both of those examples. So the assumption is you have given up the corporation already right?

My assumption is that 10% production and zero distance upkeep is exactly equal to corporation benefits.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

My assumption is that 10% production and zero distance upkeep is exactly equal to corporation benefits.

Is that a valid assumption? I honestly only have very marginal experience with corps. I can't stomach not having SP on maps where I have "colony" expenses otherwise.