When do you use Musketmen?

[toft]

Wheres the "always"-button?

 

[dragodon64]

Musketmen are kinda weak now that I think about it. I might make a few as defenders, but other than that, gunpowder is really just another step to rifling.

What's weak about them? They're cheap, need no resources, ignore walls/castles and don't have any real predators (like knights have pikemen).

 

[kniteowl]

Muskets are at a disadvantage vs Knights, 10 str > 9 str.

You generally use a Drafted Musket Army in combination with your Veteran City Raider Army and they make reasonable defenders so you don't have to wait for reinforcements to defend your recently captured cities.

 

[Levgre]

Muskets are at a disadvantage vs Knights, 10 str > 9 str.

You generally use a Drafted Musket Army in combination with your Veteran City Raider Army and they make reasonable defenders so you don't have to wait for reinforcements to defend your recently captured cities.

Knights do cost slightly more than musketmen. Musketmen + seige support is just as effective as knights(minus the added movement). 1 strength is really not that much different, and musketmen aren't stalled on the offense by pikemen, or by walls. They are both balanced units with strengths and weaknesses, wouldn't say the knight is flat out better.

 

[aronnax]

Sometime between never and not at all

 

[Quildavyr]

Musketmans never.Janissaries always.Just to say "hi man!" to my neighbours.

 

[JJ Boston]

Musketmen really saved me in one game I had. My northern border was barely covered then Darius declared war on me. But I had the Pyramids so I switched to police state and started drafting some musketmen. I was able to build up enough to hold him off so they really came though for me. Although that was the only time I remember heavily using them.

 

[Diamondeye]

Glad to see so many replies Thread was a bit dead when it started out
I forgot musketeers, sorry, but I have never played France and I always kill them off before gunpowder if they're in the game - maybe except De Gaulle, the other AIs are really annoying.

-What are the effects of musketeers? One extra move, anything else?

 

[Diamondeye]

I will build them if I have a lot of gold, just for quick upgrades to Riflemen.

Why not use macemen for this, they can have CR Promos?

What's weak about them? They're cheap, need no resources, ignore walls/castles and don't have any real predators (like knights have pikemen).

Sure? I think there is some bug about this in my game, BtS 3.13. The walls and castles are noted as "Terrain Bonii", and, on top of that, I always have to bombard castle and wall away even when I have rifles/eco and use cannons. Sure, the don't get the %redu, but they still have to take it down from 100 (or 125 with CP)%

 

[Angst]

Muskets are good, as:
-They are better city attackers than Maces (0.2 difference)
-They are stronger than all units except the Knight (which is a very small 1 :strenght: difference and can be countered with Pikes)
-They can be Drafted
-No resources needed
-They are good defenders
-The UU Muskets ROCK! move at lightning speed, no counter or 10.000 first strikes? yessir

 

[Levgre]

Why not use macemen for this, they can have CR Promos?

the macemen promotion costs more $.

 

[dragodon64]

I often lack horses and find myself needing a powerful unit that isn't weak against macemen/crossbowmen. Musketmen fill just this need. Furthermore, gunpowder is neither an expensive nor an out of the way tech, so they not that difficult to obtain.

 

[Levgre]

yeah, i often don't get guilds until after liberalism and some other techs

 

[dragodon64]

I often go for guilds more for grocers to give health than for knights. Workshop bonus is just icing on the cake.

 

[anduril171]

Only real way to attack cities garrisoned with Crossbowman and Pikemen. This doesn't happen too often, but occasionally I'll run across a city with a few Longbowmen, 1-2 Pikemen, and 1-2 Crossbowmen. Macemen (even CR promoted) get murdered by CG Crossbowmen, but Musketmen seem to do OK.

The strength of the Musketmen lies in the fact that nothing of their era has a bonus against them. So they're always an effective Str 9, regardless of the unit you're up against, whereas Knights are effectively only Str 5 against Pikemen, etc. (and yes, I know strength bonuses aren't actually calculated this way, but I think this gets the point across).

Basic point is, Musketmen aren't useless, and I find myself building them fairly often.

 

[kniteowl]

Another disadvantage with Muskets is they cannot get the Shock Promotion. Actually all Gunpowder type units cannot gain that promotion, but if you have Rifles or more advanced units you don't need shock but in the case of the Musketmen you may need it, although what are the chances that you'll face Macemen Garrisoned in a city.

I personally do use Muskets if they're a UU, Aggressive, Protective, Creative or Spiritual.

Muskets would probably be more useful if they included a Gunpowder Siege unit, in between Cannons and Trebs, it is pretty strange to see a Stack of Rifles and Trebs taking cities and Trebs don't ignore walls/castles when Bombarding or attacking but Rifles do.

 

[Leodavinci]

I use them only when in trouble and only under Nationalism

 

[Roxlimn]

kniteowl:

That's one of the main reasons I go for Steel before Rifling when going to war. Trebs are seriously weak. If you're attacking a protective Civ ringed with Castles, expect a lot of pain.

Cannon are tops. Musketmen don't need the strength of Riflemen if all they're doing is protecting the Cannon and mopping up after.

 

[Diamondeye]

Muskets are good, as:
-They are better city attackers than Maces (0.2 difference)
-They are stronger than all units except the Knight (which is a very small 1 difference and can be countered with Pikes)

First point, raw macemen and raw muskets, muskets are 1 better, not 0.2 (Maces do not inherit 10% against cities).
With one promotion (Combat for musket, CR for Mace), Muskets have .3 more than maces. With 2 promotions, maces have .8 more than Muskets.

the macemen promotion costs more $.

But fewer are needed because they are more effective, see above statement. Also, maces are cheaper than muskets...?

 

[bardolph]

First point, raw macemen and raw muskets, muskets are 1 better, not 0.2 (Maces do not inherit 10% against cities).
With one promotion (Combat for musket, CR for Mace), Muskets have .3 more than maces. With 2 promotions, maces have .8 more than Muskets.
...
But fewer are needed because they are more effective, see above statement. Also, maces are cheaper than muskets...?

True enough, though the extra for muskets are free if you're getting them through drafting.

As was mentioned before, the combat odds change significantly if there are any crossbowmen defending your enemies' cities. That would almost necessitate using Musketmen.

Musketmen also have very flexible promotions. CR is nice, but a Drill-promoted Musketman can also serve as a fine city defender once the dust settles. If you're using siege as your primary damage-dealer, then drill is as good as CR anyway, and in some cases better.