When Jesus born?

[Ajidica]

even word spacing as we know them today didn't exist. writinglookedlikethis

Wait what.......
How long did it take for someone to get the bright idea to stick a mark where a sentence ended, or a space between words?

 

[Plotinus]

Round about the seventh or eighth century CE, but it was a couple of hundred years more before it became widespread throughout Europe. This book has all the details! - including, as you can see from the blurb, how people in antiquity had a wholly different ideology around the function and purpose of writing compared to our own.

 

[Patine]

Wait what.......
How long did it take for someone to get the bright idea to stick a mark where a sentence ended, or a space between words?

Round about the seventh or eighth century CE, but it was a couple of hundred years more before it became widespread throughout Europe. This book has all the details! - including, as you can see from the blurb, how people in antiquity had a wholly different ideology around the function and purpose of writing compared to our own.

Yes, Medieval monks started with spacing, punctuation, and lower-case letters - at least in a Phoenetic Alphabet. However, Christ's use of a term translated into King James Edition English Bibles as, "jot and tittle," indicates that languages like Aramaic, Hebrew, and, probably, once becoming much more widespread in usage starting in the 6th Century, Arabic, and likely before that point, as well as also probably Ethiopian langiages, and others that used Adjab Scripts. were seemingly using their own, very distinct take on punctuation.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well of course all the Gospels are anonymous, so nobody knows who wrote them. There's no reason to think any of them was written by someone who was actually there though - quite the reverse, given that they appear to be based on earlier oral traditions.



The thing you have to bear in mind is that people in antiquity didn't think like us, or act like us. This is particularly so when it comes to writing. Even literate people were often suspicious of the value of writing. Plato's Phaedrus has a famous passage where he argues that the written word is a pale imitation of the spoken word and fundamentally unreliable. And even literate people valued memory over reading. It was usual for people to memorise entire texts, even if they were literate; this is what enabled expert exegetes such as Paul to interpret one passage in the light of another, because they had memorised them. Jerome memorised the entire Bible by heart, a feat which was not as unusual as you'd think. So yes, if Jesus' ministry were happening today, you might think it odd that none of the dozens or even hundreds of disciples that he apparently had didn't write anything down about it. But that doesn't apply in antiquity, because people were simply more used to relying on memory, even if they were literate.

The only text I can think of off-hand from antiquity that we would consider a "journal", kept solely for the author's own use, is Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, which is striking simply because of its rarity. There are campaign journals such as Alexander the Great's, but they were kept because they were needed for logistics, not because the writers thought there was intrinsic value in writing them down. Another possible example is The Passion of Saints Perpetua and Felicity, which is apparently based on a journal by Perpetua, but here again she was presumably writing this with an eye to the edification of her community. The most personal writings that we eve get from antiquity are usually letters rather than journals.

This is perhaps partly because people read more slowly in antiquity than we do today. Punctuation and even word spacing as we know them today didn't exist. writinglookedlikethis And that meant that you couldn't scan a text and quickly take in each word as a unit as we do today. You had to speak it out loud and work out the words as you sounded them. Hence the famous passage in Augustine's Confessions where he says that Ambrose was so clever he could read without moving his lips. Reading, even in private, was a performative act and a slow one compared to how we read today. So it's little wonder that people didn't typically keep journals or indeed write at all unless they were specifically intending to send a message to somebody else (or to write a book for general circulation), quite apart from issues of the cost and availability of writing materials. They simply did not have the writing-based culture that we do.



I'm with you on that. I can't understand how someone could be so unaware of the basic facts about their own religion.

She also believes in witches, says I'm a witch, and that the Salem witch trials ended in 1963.

I've been very relieved that she's only got permanent resident status, so she's not eligible to vote.

Round about the seventh or eighth century CE, but it was a couple of hundred years more before it became widespread throughout Europe. This book has all the details! - including, as you can see from the blurb, how people in antiquity had a wholly different ideology around the function and purpose of writing compared to our own.

Ah. Well, that's good... I don't have to change anything in my King's Heir fanfic related to reading and writing. Mind you, it's in an AU version of the UK in the early 11th century. The game devs decided to have one character quote Shakespeare and the Brothers Grimm, plus his father wears 19th-century suspenders, so having separations between words in their books doesn't strike me as anything I need to worry about.

 

[Patine]

She also believes in witches, says I'm a witch, and that the Salem witch trials ended in 1963.

This was the last trial conducted under the Massachusetts Witchcraft Laws:

Salem witchcraft trial (1878) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was after about 180 years of those laws being in dormant, unenforced abeyance (since the Salem Trials of the 1690's), but still on the law books (like many ridiculous old law, even if unenforced and deprecated). This trial was a fiasco between two former members of Mary Baker-Eddy's wonky cult, the Chuch of Christian Science, charging another former member for, "mesmeric infuence," (the Church of Christian Science believed heavily in mesmerism, hypnotism of the unwilling, and, "animal magnetism," especially after the early hypno-therapist Dr. Quimby became involved with the group. Judge Horace Gray did not take the case seriously, in it's subject matter, and wanted to summarily dismiss it, but also wanted to bring enough public attention to it that the Massachusetts Legisalture would finally repeal the barbaric throwback.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

and that the Salem witch trials ended in 1963.

What does that even mean

 

[Plotinus]

Witch hunts are going on today, mostly in Africa and India. They tend to be extra-judicial, though, so they don’t involve trials, just violence.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

What does that even mean

It means this woman stayed home when brains were handed out. She's a very unpleasant individual from Medicine Hat (a city in southern Alberta) who has the craziest notions. Her Canadian husband married her 20 years ago in Texas, and they later came to Canada to "plant churches". She credits him with "educating" her. When people call her on this "2000-year-old world" nonsense, she tells them that they're mentally unstable, they need to "educate themselves", and her favorite is "thats just your nasty opinion".

She's been reported multiple times by multiple people for mocking the disabled, indigenous people, making threats, spreading misinformation about covid and disability programs, but it never seems enough for FB to make her go away.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

OK, but what does she actually say about the Salem Trials? Why does she think they went on until 1963? Unless you meant to type '1693', but in that case why would that be a batty notion?

 

[Plotinus]

Well, that is when sexual intercourse began. Just join the dots. The logic is unassailable!

 

[Patine]

It means this woman stayed home when brains were handed out. She's a very unpleasant individual from Medicine Hat (a city in southern Alberta) who has the craziest notions. Her Canadian husband married her 20 years ago in Texas, and they later came to Canada to "plant churches". She credits him with "educating" her. When people call her on this "2000-year-old world" nonsense, she tells them that they're mentally unstable, they need to "educate themselves", and her favorite is "thats just your nasty opinion".

She's been reported multiple times by multiple people for mocking the disabled, indigenous people, making threats, spreading misinformation about covid and disability programs, but it never seems enough for FB to make her go away.

I've ownly met one person from Medicine Hat, and he runs subsidised housing in Edmonton for those on AISH that are actually quite above bar in quality and standards.

As for this woman you speak of, she sounds like the type that even most Christians today would call an embarrassing whacko.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

OK, but what does she actually say about the Salem Trials? Why does she think they went on until 1963? Unless you meant to type '1693', but in that case why would that be a batty notion?

Rant incoming... (skip if you prefer; I just need to get this off my chest, so I'll spoiler it)

Spoiler response to above question and a rant :

Neither of us did a typo. She insisted for WEEKS that the Salem witch trials ended in 1963. She never said anything other than repeatedly accusing me of being a witch, both in public and via DM, and insisting that the Salem witch trials ended in 1963. Someone pointed out to her that they didn't, and provided a link to information that gives the correct dates. She does not bother to support her views with facts, and any links she does post invariably turn out to be of irrelevant material that's either unrelated or sort of related but not the actual topic. When asked why she thinks the things she thinks, she claims that she "already" told us, or that we're mentally unstable, are posting nonsense, need to grow up, etc.

She has an inability to accept even the mildest correction, can't fathom saying "Sorry, my mistake" and moving on, but instead insists on doubling down, tripling down, quadrupling down... until she might finally accept the factual information... and will then pretend she never disputed it or gave incorrect information in the first place. Any screenshots that prove otherwise are dismissed as "photoshopped."

This went on not only about witches, but about whether or not the U.S. is a foreign country (I get that she doesn't consider it foreign since she was born there, but that's not the point), where Canada's National War Memorial is (she thinks it's in Washington, DC), whether or not there are RCMP in Ottawa, whether or not a woman from the trucker's convoy danced on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at the aforementioned National War Memorial in Ottawa, and what year she came to Canada (three different years and a variety of dates so far). She insisted she was not here yet during the years when Canada was involved in the war in Afghanistan, but the veteran she was busy insulting at the time (he was disabled due to an injury in the line of duty) found an old blog she and her husband wrote that proved that yes, they were in Canada during the latter years... and she insisted alternately that either the blog never existed, it was fake, and several other varieties of denial. One of her favorite go-tos is accusing the person who brings up inconvenient facts of photoshopping them. How any of us could photoshop factual information about her family from over 10 years ago when we didn't have all the pertinent information is beyond me.

Yet I'm the "mentally unstable" one? The Afghan war veteran is the one who needs to "educate" himself?

She also insists that people who don't have children have no right to an opinion about education, and that we "don't get a say." I explained that in municipal elections, the school board ballots are handed out based on where the elector states they want the education portion of their property tax to go - public or Catholic. You can choose one or the other. Not both. Or you can decline the school board ballot if education issues aren't something you're interested in (or you find none of the candidates acceptable). At no time is anyone ever asked for their parental status or to prove if they have children enrolled in any school system (public, Catholic, charter, homeschooled, etc.).

When I pointed out that her notion makes no sense in the case of teachers who don't have children - it's absurd to deny teachers the right to express their views on education or vote for school board candidates, right?

Wrong. Her comeback was that every teacher she knew had children. She can't wrap her head around the idea that a teacher might not have kids of their own.

One say she screamed at me, "YOU WANT ME TO BE STUPID". Well, no, I don't want her to be stupid. That's the point. I would like her to be open to admitting mistakes and having an actual conversation that doesn't consist of her misinformation, weird notions, and then screeching insults at everyone who disagrees with her.

I've ownly met one person from Medicine Hat, and he runs subsidised housing in Edmonton for those on AISH that are actually quite above bar in quality and standards.

As for this woman you speak of, she sounds like the type that even most Christians today would call an embarrassing whacko.

I have nothing against the other people of Medicine Hat, just her and her husband. Some of the misinformation being spread about AISH is just fueling the crazy notions of the UCP supporters who imagine that we're living some sort of lavish lifestyle. I'm at the stage where home care is necessary for some things. Her take: "It must be nice." She stated that people on AISH don't have to pay for gas or utilities. Well, it's true that I don't pay for gas. I don't own a vehicle and don't drive. But if I fail to pay my utility bills, I'd get cut off the same as anyone else.

To hear her talk, she's got loads of friends who love and respect her. Well, good for her if that's true. Going by the family blog, they prefer to only associate with people of their own very specific variety of faith, and her husband stated that anyone who doesn't follow it, or who isn't open to joining any of the churches he's "planting", deserves to die.

Charming couple. He was part of the border blockade at Coutts last year.

I wonder what year they think Jesus was born (to finally get back on-topic), since their world is only 2000 years old.

 

[Patine]

She also insists that people who don't have children have no right to an opinion about education, and that we "don't get a say." I explained that in municipal elections, the school board ballots are handed out based on where the elector states they want the education portion of their property tax to go - public or Catholic. You can choose one or the other. Not both. Or you can decline the school board ballot if education issues aren't something you're interested in (or you find none of the candidates acceptable). At no time is anyone ever asked for their parental status or to prove if they have children enrolled in any school system (public, Catholic, charter, homeschooled, etc.).

When I pointed out that her notion makes no sense in the case of teachers who don't have children - it's absurd to deny teachers the right to express their views on education or vote for school board candidates, right?

Wrong. Her comeback was that every teacher she knew had children. She can't wrap her head around the idea that a teacher might not have kids of their own.

I remember a thread on a very different forum about capital punishment. One guy said, in general, that if you don't have a close relative who was murdered, who should have no say in the debate, and your opinion doesn't matter. Sounds like a very similar type of highly flawed polemic viewpoint.

Well, it's true that I don't pay for gas. I don't own a vehicle and don't drive. But if I fail to pay my utility bills, I'd get cut off the same as anyone else.

While there are people on AISH who do drive, it often quickly becomes an economic hardship, and they often end up selling theire vehicle and not renewing their license and insurance. And they certainly don't get free gas while they drive!

 

[Plotinus]

Why are you friends with someone like that, Valka? Block her and move on. There's no point engaging with people like that.

 

[Patine]

Why are you friends with someone like that, Valka? Block her and move on. There's no point engaging with people like that.

I think I can somewhat emphathize (if not see logic or reason) in what @Valka D'Ur is doing, as I tend to engage certain toxic people of that calibre on some forums, too, even over a protracted period, much to my headache.

 

[Plotinus]

Oh, I entirely sympathise. I've spent enough time doing it too. But you realise eventually that there's no point. All it achieves is aggravation and unhappiness. As they say, you can't reason someone out of a viewpoint that isn't based on reason to start with. This is one reason I've basically stopped using almost all social media. It's almost always just a waste of time.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Why are you friends with someone like that, Valka? Block her and move on. There's no point engaging with people like that.

There are some things I will not allow to go unchallenged, and that includes misinformation about the disability benefit I get. Tens of thousands of people in this province depend on it for survival, and toxic idiots like her love to spread malicious lies about it.

I'm not friends with her, never have been, never will be. Her constantly changing stories about her immigration dates and status have some people suspicious in various ways, including possible voter fraud. Someone else wondered if they should ask for a wellness check on her children (both are nonverbal autistic), since she's presented herself as BS!C for so long.

I think I can somewhat emphathize (if not see logic or reason) in what @Valka D'Ur is doing, as I tend to engage certain toxic people of that calibre on some forums, too, even over a protracted period, much to my headache.

Other than the vicious things she's been saying about the most vulnerable demographics in this province, I just wish that she'd back her ridiculous notions up with some kind of facts. She doesn't. I've had more coherent conversations with 4-year-olds.

It's all moot, though, by this point. I don't know what story she spun, but I've been banned from not only replying on my own MLA's page, but also from even seeing it.

Of course the fact that it's unethical for MLAs and MPs to block their own constituents on social media just whooshes over LaGrange's head.

Still, I do have a friend or two who let me know what's going on occasionally. One is the Afghanistan war vet (he's asked if I have any screenshots of some of the more toxic stuff she's said, as she's trying to get him banned as well), and another is a teacher I became acquainted with on the anti-draft curriculum FB group.

Oh, I entirely sympathise. I've spent enough time doing it too. But you realise eventually that there's no point. All it achieves is aggravation and unhappiness. As they say, you can't reason someone out of a viewpoint that isn't based on reason to start with. This is one reason I've basically stopped using almost all social media. It's almost always just a waste of time.

The curriculum issue is important, as it's what this crazy government wants taught in all elementary schools now. I'm talking about a social studies program where students are expected to find Regina and Duck Lake on a map of Alberta and measure the distance between them (an impossible task, as both these places are in Saskatchewan). The science curriculum demands that they locate gravity on a globe, which is absurd. Financial literacy is taught in gym class, and sex education emphases abstinence over proper information. I could go on all day, and I'm nowhere near the curriculum experts' level of loathing for this mess.

It's been 40 years since I was in the B.Ed. program at the local college, and over 30 years since I last formally taught or tutored anyone. I don't have kids at all, let alone kids in school. So why is this important?

The kids in school are the people who will grow to run this province some day, or they might grow up to be the doctor, nurse, pharmacist, or firefighter who could save my life at some point. But none of that will happen if they receive the slipshod mountain of cowpies that masquerades as an adequate curriculum.

As someone said awhile ago: "I don't want to live in a province run by stupid people." So I'm trying to do what I can to make sure this doesn't happen.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well, that is when sexual intercourse began. Just join the dots. The logic is unassailable!

Marvelous!

And to back up a bit, folks do forget that their was likely a very strong oral tradition among the people who knew or heard Jesus while he lived. I suspect that it was that strong tradition that carried the communities forward and when those folks began to die off, somebody had the bright idea to collect the stories before they were lost.

 

[Patine]

Marvelous!

And to back up a bit, folks do forget that their was likely a very strong oral tradition among the people who knew or heard Jesus while he lived. I suspect that it was that strong tradition that carried the communities forward and when those folks began to die off, somebody had the bright idea to collect the stories before they were lost.

As I pointed out, that was typical of the great majority of religious Scriptures (or corpi of Legends and Lore) of most faiths. Islam is one of the very few, as I pointed out, claimed, strongly, to be written by it's Founder recording current events (and, even so, the Quran contains a significant amount of retrospective material, itself). The core writings of Buddhism are long held to be also be written by Gautama around contemporary events, but a lot of the later texts are obviously long retrospective by the authors. Almost all others (including Christianity) share this jotting things down from oral records, or perhaps, in places, too, previous, lost texts transscribed from (like the Q Document, for instance).

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

As I pointed out, that was typical of the great majority of religious Scriptures (or corpi of Legends and Lore) of most faiths. Islam is one of the very few, as I pointed out, claimed, strongly, to be written by it's Founder recording current events (and, even so, the Quran contains a significant amount of retrospective material, itself). The core writings of Buddhism are long held to be also be written by Gautama around contemporary events, but a lot of the later texts are obviously long retrospective by the authors. Almost all others (including Christianity) share this jotting things down from oral records, or perhaps, in places, too, previous, lost texts transscribed from (like the Q Document, for instance).

This was more or else also the case in Islam, as a matter of fact. The Quran was actually compiled in one complete physical form after the Prophet's death, when a large number of Companions who had memorised the Quran were killed in a battle. Before that it existed as written fragments or as a whole memorised by several Muslims. Now for that Ahadith, the sayings of the Prophet, these existed as oral records passed on from generation to generation until they were recorded and compiled in different books (this I think is closer in similitude to the Gospel of the Christians) although the tradition of memorising ahadith (along with the chain of narrators) is still continued today.