When Jimmy Carter was elected... worst

[peter grimes]

No matter how weak the Soviet Union was NOBODY in power gives up power. There were lots of contributing factors but Reagan's agendas were a factor. star wars defense, tear down this wall, 500 fleet navy etc. we won.

Your impressions of Reagan and his effects on the Soviet Union are inaccurate. Economically it was going to fall apart internally sooner rather than later, politically it was impossible to hold together after the cover up surrounding Chernobyl.

Harding or Buchanan could have been President and the USSR would still have imploded.

Reagan, as Cutlass mentioned, actually strengthened the position of the ultra-conservatives. Especially SDI gave them all the reasons in the world to double down on continued stalemate.

Reagan was oblivious to the implications, and blindly insisted that they had nothing to worry about, against the analysis and recommendations of his professional foreign service officers.
Reagan, if anything, prolonged the cold war by a year or so.

 

[Tahuti]

The USSR's implosion was far from certain. It wasn't really Reagan's job, though he definitely helped by forcing the Saudis to sell their oil at discount prices and helping the Taliban.

If anything, it was Gorbachov's ill-maneuvering that brought down the USSR. He politically decentralised the USSR too much to be continued as a viable political entity. The individual Soviet republics (including Russia) had little interest in continuing the Soviet Union, and would have seceded if given the opportunity, which Gorbachov gave them. Gorbachov eventually would use military force in Azerbaijan and the Baltics (so much for the view he was a face of morality) to crush their independence struggles, though these as well as the Nagarno-Karabakh war and the Baltic revolutions were ultimately the culminations of decentralisation policy Gorbachov enacted.

Without the decentralisations enacted by Gorbachov, the USSR might have well survived into the 21st century.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The Soviet Union was already doomed economically before Reagan even took office. He was such an incompetent fool that he almost caused a nuclear war despite that particular danger growing steadily less for 20 years before he took office.

 

[Cutlass]

The Reagan administration tried to get the Saudis to raise oil prices..... GHW Bush as veep went to Saudi Arabia to ask for higher prices.

 

[IAM]

...Economically it was going to fall apart internally sooner rather than later, politically it was impossible to hold together after the cover up surrounding Chernobyl. ...

Everyone here together. If you think politicians are just going to give up power for any reason then NO you are wrong. 2 points:

1- this is a thread about Jimmy Carter
2- The idea that the Soviet Union just decided to disband without external influence is just silly (nobody gives up power!)

LISTEN TO SOME GOOD MUSIC AND STOP POSTING CRAP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiWvlpSyzbw edit: 55 seconds in

 

[CavLancer]

With Amy to handle the nuclear war issues Jimmy was free to babble about the terrible economy.

 

[IAM]

With Amy to handle the nuclear war issues Jimmy was free to babble about the terrible economy.

no one in power gives up power. That's like someone giving their home up to a cat.

 

[onejayhawk]

Everyone here together. If you think politicians are just going to give up power for any reason then NO you are wrong. 2 points:

1- this is a thread about Jimmy Carter
2- The idea that the Soviet Union just decided to disband without external influence is just silly (nobody gives up power!)

Do not underestimate the power of creditors. The USSR could no longer pay their military, their satellite nation's military and police their own country. They pulled the military home and hunkered down to salvage what they could. Without the continual threat of invasion, the edges broke away.

 

[Formaldehyde]

If you think politicians are just going to give up power for any reason then NO you are wrong.

Only nobody really "gave up power". It was a fairly orderly transition from one form of government to another. Even so, some of the hardliners had to be forcibly removed from power by insiders, not outsiders, after their coup failed.

 

[IAM]

Do not underestimate the power of creditors. The USSR could no longer pay their military, their satellite nation's military and police their own country. They pulled the military home and hunkered down to salvage what they could. Without the continual threat of invasion, the edges broke away.

I am just a landlord and I would extermintate everyone that violates our legal agreements if I were allowed to do so. Can you imagine that the CCCP would do less?

 

[Kennigit]

that hippy carter. wanting healthcare reform and sustainable energy policy and converting to the metric system!

hippy

 

[IAM]

that hippy carter. wanting healthcare reform and sustainable energy policy and converting to the metric system!

hippy

The metric system based on reality

Vhttp://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/index.html

 

[onejayhawk]

I am just a landlord and I would extermintate everyone that violates our legal agreements if I were allowed to do so. Can you imagine that the CCCP would do less?

What legal agreements? The Soviet Union was the one in default.

that hippy carter. wanting healthcare reform and sustainable energy policy and converting to the metric system!

hippy

Carter wanted a lot of things that were good in the abstract. it was his grasp of reality that was the problem. Carter was a much better example of humanity than Richard Nixon, but Dick is the one I want dealing with other countries. Their respective records are crystal clear on that point.

J

 

[Tee Kay]

My primary complaint about the Carter administration is the way he handled the Iranian revolution. Yes, I think Harding was actually a better president than Carter.

How exactly do you handle a revolution?

 

[onejayhawk]

How exactly do you handle a revolution?

Hint, withdrawing support from an ally is considered bad form.

J

 

[Tee Kay]

Giving too much support to an ally is what led to this situation in the first place.

 

[Berzerker]

i think carter would have been a great president in an age of peace but Reagan defeated the Nemesis. GW Bush bad.

Carter came in on the heels of Vietnam, kept us out of more wars in spite of warmongering politicians, and induced a Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by arming the resistance. Reagan followed Carter's lead.

 

[caketastydelish]

the CIA overthrew a perfectly legitimate Iranian democracy. Carter could have been better.

and induced a Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by arming the resistance. Reagan followed Carter's lead.

did this really do us good in the end, though?

 

[Berzerker]

it was immoral, but did it help?

sure, The USSR collapsed a decade later and the blood and treasure they wasted was a big reason.

It came back to bite us in the arse, but thats because Bush-Clinton-Bush stupidly got us stuck in the ME because of Iraq soon after the Russians left. Reagan learned that lesson in Beirut '83.

 

[Tahuti]

The Soviet Union was already doomed economically before Reagan even took office. He was such an incompetent fool that he almost caused a nuclear war despite that particular danger growing steadily less for 20 years before he took office.

The point was that it could have been a Japan style lost era instead of wholesale collapse of the USSR.

The Reagan administration tried to get the Saudis to raise oil prices..... GHW Bush as veep went to Saudi Arabia to ask for higher prices.

I made a major mistake there. The Reagan administration definitely tried to influence the Saudis, though it was not only what you mentioned (I think you are right), they also tried to get the Saudis increase oil production.

Giving too much support to an ally is what led to this situation in the first place.

True. However, he could at least have tried to mediate the transition to a truly constitutional monarchy. It was completely unnecessary to allow the Shah to be overthrown. That besides, he failed to decisively take action to allow more liberal elements take control of the revolution. Overall, the main problem was that he didn't took much of a side in the revolution at all. He allowed to the Shah to be overthrown, though he wasn't exactly vocal about which side in the revolution he supported, so the US got stuck with the stigma of supporting the Shah, getting the worst of both worlds.