When to switch from slavery to caste system?

[byang08]

I'm having trouble finding the right time. When I have NE I usually still need some basic infrastructure in newly settled cities. On maps that lack production it seems staying on slavery until emancipation is the best choice. If you switch to caste early what happens to new cities that do not have production?

 

[Seraiel]

It's very simple:

If you want Domination / Conquest: Stay in Slavery the whole game.
If you want maximum tech (i. e. Spacerace / Diplo / Sushi / etc.) : Switch to Caste + Pacifism

Apart from that, Caste + Pacifism are very nice in Golden Ages and the Border-pops from Artist-specialists are the easiest ever, so with being SPI, one might want to switch to Caste only to not build some Monuments ^^ .

Another good reason to run Caste btw. are that the Merchant-Slots are "cheaper" , because Markets and Grocers are very expensive. Therefor, one might want to switch to Caste System if needing a GM (i. e. for mass-upgrading Cuirrassiers) .

 

[ohjames]

New cities with low production can get a bit of a boost from chopping nearby forests. But yes, small cities have trouble setting up infrastructure under Caste, so if you're still expanding with Settlers you might want to stay in Slavery. (If you're expanding with Catapults, though, Caste may be ok!)

Switching to Caste during Golden Ages is advisable. You usually don't want to whip during (or immediately before) a GA, and you get a large bonus to Great Person points during a GA. You can switch back to Slavery when there's one turn remaining in the Age.

If you've managed to find an exceptionally lucrative bonus food site, it might be worth it to forego the benefits of Slavery in order to run some absurd number of Scientists or Merchants there under Caste, especially since in the early game you usually don't have access to more than two of each from buildings. That kind of situation tends to lend itself to bunkering up in a small number of cities while you generate several Great Scientists which slingshot you up to a powerful military technology with which to 'break out' of your little enclave - which sidesteps the problem of developing small cities nicely, because you just don't bother.

 

[pomthom]

Caste can also be useful if you've built the Mids and running Representation (Pacifism is not mandatory here). But such opportunities are rare because you need the whip so much early game

 

[RedKi-rr]

What about usefullness of Caste System when go State Property + a lot of workshops?

 

[shakabrade]

Actually, that is the question I am still asking myself. It is incredibly complex and I am not sarcastic.

But some conditions usually have to be met in my games (but it can vary a lot):

State Religion, or religion to be state in all GPP cities, almost full food bin and max population in GPP cities so I can starve them during GA, Caste and Pacifism.
Well, Philosophy for Pacifism. When they are met, it is usually good time to trigger the GA and switch to Caste. But, if you are going for a war and need all those Forges, it can vary a lot.

 

[GKey]

Yep, this is among hardest decisions to make.
There are scenarios though:
Bulb Tao, Start Golden Age, switch into Cast System + Pacifism, Research Civil Service During Golden Age, At the end of Golden Age switch back into Slavery+OR AND Bureaucracy - just one of them.

 

[robbyextreme]

I only switch when I'm expressing to liberalism. By switching you are throwing out dozens of hammers each turn, if I go caste it's only because I want extra great scientists to help tech education/libarlism, but then I'll probably switch back to slavery anyway cause it's the best civic anyway.

 

[Strickl3r]

Spiritual ftw. Makes the decision easier and offers more Flexibility or at least, if it's the wrong decision for that time of the game the mistake doesn't get punished to hard.

 

[enKage]

I change to caste with big empires, just because I dont have enough workers then to improve most tiles and because i am too lazy to check every city when to whipo it with nice overflow. I switch to caste for free merchants slots and to have research with low slider. it ends up with 3-4pop sized cities all with specialists and even 1pop cities with only specialist worked :] Maybe it is not very effective in improving infrastructure, buut it is the only way to run early big empire, even pre currency

In other cases I stay in slavery until universities to whip them for oxford. I sometimes (usually philo) run 1 early golden age to bulb to unis earlier and run scientists then with famine.

 

[cseanny]

I'll be in slavery (90% time....barring diff leaders and strange sling shots) whipping as much as possible till my 1st GA, especially in big empires via REX/early war (superior production and lower maintenance).

At GA switch civics as needed and then back to slavery (most cases) so you can whip whip whip at key tech . If you still need infrastructure before your GA then keep whipping and regrow 1st.

Times where its a good choice to stay in Caste are with IND leaders, especially with the MIDS. This allows for quick forges, fast Wonders (National too), more Great People, and in conjunction with PS lets you straight build (WS good) units such as HA/Phant/Treb and instantly upgrade Xamount of units immediately upon reaching a key tech, which is arguably faster than whipping. Key wonders making this strategy powerful are Mids/MoM/TGL/TAJ/NE and HE if your lucky (barbs).

 

[Robert FIN]

Well, If you are not preparing or are not in war, CasteSystem might be fine. If fighting against someone, you might want to make rapid boosts, so Slavery is pretty useful there.

 

[Pangaea]

I'm actually more in doubt over when to move out of Bureaucracy than Slavery (as I try not to move out of slavery at all, except in golden ages where you typically want to boost Great People production). Any good guidelines here?

 

[enKage]

Pangea, this is ratrher easy choice. If you run only 1 cottaged city - capitol - never change. If culture game - ASAP. Otherwise you just count towns in your capitol and towns poutside capital, then do the maths. I exclude wartimne as it is nice to switch to nationhood for some time of drafting (in very large empires is it also sometimes better than peacecivics while played nonORG civ, as it has NO maintanance, but nearly always free spech is better as it is not an expensive civic).

I think the hardest choice is when to switch Representaton to US if one has lots of towns developed. Maths here is more complex if beakers from specialist throughout the whole empire are less worth than beakers fdrom added production in typically some cities.

 

[Seraiel]

Math on Buro is very simple.

Base-Commerce of Capital (shown in the upper left corner of the city screen) * multipliers = gain in Research / Golde / Espionage etc.

Gain > save from "free" Nationhood = clear sign for Buro.

Yet though: Knowing the situation better overrides most things, so when needing troops, Gain in Research doesn't matter so much = switch.

 

[Pangaea]

There is also the possible diplo hit though, from AIs with Buro as favourite civic. Like in my current game, with +3 and +5 for Buro. I did wind up going out of it for Nationhood and drafting rifles, but if I hadn't planned war it would have been difficult to leave Buro.

On the math, you should only take base commerce * 50% right? The other multipliers apply anyway after all, so the difference is the +50% with Buro.

Edit: And same for hammers of course. I find that can be a bigger deal than the commerce at that point, and the loss in hammers can be pretty severe in the capital. Those hammers can of course be used for Wealth, which makes the actual loss to research/wealth bigger than first assumed.

 

[Seraiel]

There is also the possible diplo hit though, from AIs with Buro as favourite civic. Like in my current game, with +3 and +5 for Buro. I did wind up going out of it for Nationhood and drafting rifles, but if I hadn't planned war it would have been difficult to leave Buro.

On the math, you should only take base commerce * 50% right? The other multipliers apply anyway after all, so the difference is the +50% with Buro.

Edit: And same for hammers of course. I find that can be a bigger deal than the commerce at that point, and the loss in hammers can be pretty severe in the capital. Those hammers can of course be used for Wealth, which makes the actual loss to research/wealth bigger than first assumed.

Both multipliers, so the 50% and the xxx% from buildings are applied one after another.

If i. e. 100

With Buro: 150
With Oxford: 300

difference to non-buro: 100 (50 from buro * 200% from oxford) .

Diplomatic bonuses are an argument, but the CIVs having Buro as a favourite Civic aren't the best researchers (Hammu, Qin) or hated by most so not good for trade (Peter) .

to me at that point usually aren't important because I already have a lot of cities then usually, but more important: Drafting gives so many extra-hammers, that Buro cannot compare unit-wise.

Of course, when needing max-research, Buro is still better.

 

[jihe]

I'm actually more in doubt over when to move out of Bureaucracy than Slavery (as I try not to move out of slavery at all, except in golden ages where you typically want to boost Great People production). Any good guidelines here?

At Rifling.

 

[jihe]

Pangea, this is ratrher easy choice. If you run only 1 cottaged city - capitol - never change. If culture game - ASAP. Otherwise you just count towns in your capitol and towns poutside capital, then do the maths. I exclude wartimne as it is nice to switch to nationhood for some time of drafting (in very large empires is it also sometimes better than peacecivics while played nonORG civ, as it has NO maintanance, but nearly always free spech is better as it is not an expensive civic).

I think the hardest choice is when to switch Representaton to US if one has lots of towns developed. Maths here is more complex if beakers from specialist throughout the whole empire are less worth than beakers fdrom added production in typically some cities.

It should be pretty clear cut. If you civ has lots of towns developed you are obviously not running many specialists.

 

[Seraiel]

At Rifling.

Only in domination / conquest games, and then, Gunpowder alone is often enough reason already. Highscore games in addition follow again a different logic, then a few turns after Sushi is the turn to switch.