Where are the unemployed?
- Thread starter WS78
- Start date
Gengis Khan
Deity
I'd call anarchy a bit of an "economic slowdown."
Tomoyo
Fate
That was from receiving gpt deals from Europe, and then in a future patch, the Europeans couldn't pay. Possible in civ, but not likely, as humans have foresight.WS78 said:
Crazy Eddie
Genial drunkard
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2001
- Messages
- 880
Unemployment in the modern age is already well modeled in civ3, that's when you have loads of workers scattered about, costing you gold (welfare) and doing nothing if there's no pollution to clear. 
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
That would mean that if there's even one piece of pollution, then there's always a job.
Truthfully, in Civ, there's always a job, because you're always discovering new technologies which make new improvements available, and you're always trying to mobilize a military. For a game that models a capitalist democracy, it seems to put a LOT more production in the hands of one person.
I don't know how you'd model unemployment, however. At what point your population would grow too big for your country, and how you could increase the number of jobs... it would involve the creation of all kinds of new sliders and variables, which isn't necessarily a good solution.
Truthfully, in Civ, there's always a job, because you're always discovering new technologies which make new improvements available, and you're always trying to mobilize a military. For a game that models a capitalist democracy, it seems to put a LOT more production in the hands of one person.
I don't know how you'd model unemployment, however. At what point your population would grow too big for your country, and how you could increase the number of jobs... it would involve the creation of all kinds of new sliders and variables, which isn't necessarily a good solution.
Unemployment is a very good idea! There should be a large, intenational economical system that allows minor, underdeveloped nations to close up a bit by simply having cheap labor. That would lead into lower unemployment rates, while the rich, developed nations have problems keeping labor at home and could have higher ones. Other factors like government type should also affect it. At the end there's a simple percentage of unemployment (let's say 10%) that reduces productivity with the same level, similar to corruption.
anarchywrksbest
Deity
The unemployed are being put to good use at the Soylent Green factory. 
Pook
Bloviating
I thought the unemployed were the citizens who were unhappy and stirring up trouble in my cities.
There are three kinds of unemployment:
A) Structural- Steel worker is unemployed, computer company has an opening for a programmer, but the steel worker doesn't have the skills to do the job.
B) Frictional- Steel worker is unemployed, steel company has a job opening, but they don't know about each other. The newspaper and the internet reduce this type of unemployment.
C) Cyclical- Economy is not doing well, and there are more steelworkers than there are jobs for them.
I think structural and frictional unemployment are already covered by the unhappiness of new citizens. Although there will always be unemployed (although sometimes governments hide it by giving people do-nothing jobs), I believe the length of game turns (1-50 years) make it difficult to model the economic slowdowns that cause cyclical unemployment.
There are three kinds of unemployment:
A) Structural- Steel worker is unemployed, computer company has an opening for a programmer, but the steel worker doesn't have the skills to do the job.
B) Frictional- Steel worker is unemployed, steel company has a job opening, but they don't know about each other. The newspaper and the internet reduce this type of unemployment.
C) Cyclical- Economy is not doing well, and there are more steelworkers than there are jobs for them.
I think structural and frictional unemployment are already covered by the unhappiness of new citizens. Although there will always be unemployed (although sometimes governments hide it by giving people do-nothing jobs), I believe the length of game turns (1-50 years) make it difficult to model the economic slowdowns that cause cyclical unemployment.
Kal-el
Deity
wasn't unemployment tracked in Civ2?
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
Pook said:
Then how can temples and colliseums be effective if somebody can't even afford to feed themselves? On the other hand, finding a way to boost jobs would be highly effective.
Pook said:
Still, there are a lot of aspects of Civ that aren't modelled properly to time. I mean, most wars don't take as long as they do in civ if you count it by years. Usually you can link specific battles and sites to specific months. Or just as another example, how your city is only producing one thing at a time. These are gameplay conveniences that are easily accepted by the user with a bit of imagination. No reason unemployment cycles would have to be realistic time lengths... more of a turn-based thing.
Kal-el
Deity
temples could be effective because they work in the poor neighborhoods. most charities are church based.
colliseums are effective because the are a source of entertainment for the poorer classes and a way to make a quick buck via gambling.
Basically the same reason they are effective in our modern cities.
colliseums are effective because the are a source of entertainment for the poorer classes and a way to make a quick buck via gambling.
Basically the same reason they are effective in our modern cities.
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
I think you grossly oversimplify things. An unemployed citizen is not the same as a citizen unhappy with overpopulation. There's no catch-all solution. Solving someone's unhappiness with the government might make someone else unhappy. Someone unhappy about the fact that you "whipped people" to hurry production won't be pacified in the same way that you aid someone who doesn't feel like their uber corporation is taxed too much.
I guess that's what I felt introducing concepts like unemployment would make civ more interesting, more challenging, more realistic, more fun.
I guess that's what I felt introducing concepts like unemployment would make civ more interesting, more challenging, more realistic, more fun.
Pook
Bloviating
1) Unemployed people are far more likely to be protesting, throwing rocks and rabble-rousing than the employed.
2) Was there any such concept as unemployment prior to the Industrial Revolution? Does it really exist in an agrarian society? There is always something more to do on a farm.
3)
2) Was there any such concept as unemployment prior to the Industrial Revolution? Does it really exist in an agrarian society? There is always something more to do on a farm.
3)
dh_epic, I'm glad you brought this up. The primary reasons I play this game are for fun and because I like a challenge. I'm trying to figure out how incorporating unemployment into the game would add to either one. What exactly is your proposal? Is there a way to do it that's realistic, that doesn't take away too much of my time from managing the rest of my empire?dh_epic said:
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
The point of contraversy is always "that doesn't take away from managing the rest of my empire". I think the domination game gets incredibly dull and tedious and needs to be made simpler, in favor of making way for more interesting international and domestic concepts.
With that as a given, simply having more citizen types than "happy / content / unhappy" ... let alone "entertainer, tax collector, scientist" would do it.
Much sooner than separating by religion...
You separate by class.
The rich types want one thing, and the poor types want another thing... it's possible to satisfy both, but some decisions only work for one part of your nation... and the poor types want something else. Each has different reprocussions if left unsatisfied.
And each could be exploited by the competition. Attracting business and wealth away from your nation... or instigating a popular revolt in your nation.
There's been lots of threads and lots of ideas. The gameplay benefits of such are practically self-evident, if people can see passed the "get everybody in your nation ready to take over every city in every other nation" game.
With that as a given, simply having more citizen types than "happy / content / unhappy" ... let alone "entertainer, tax collector, scientist" would do it.
Much sooner than separating by religion...
You separate by class.
The rich types want one thing, and the poor types want another thing... it's possible to satisfy both, but some decisions only work for one part of your nation... and the poor types want something else. Each has different reprocussions if left unsatisfied.
And each could be exploited by the competition. Attracting business and wealth away from your nation... or instigating a popular revolt in your nation.
There's been lots of threads and lots of ideas. The gameplay benefits of such are practically self-evident, if people can see passed the "get everybody in your nation ready to take over every city in every other nation" game.
Bibor
Doomsday Machine
Or maybe make a revolution impossible without a decent amout of unemplyoed people? After all, people who have good jobs and salaries don't tend to change governments just for the fun of it 
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
True... and in which case, it would be hard to get a revolution out of a democracy (if there's no more slavery or anything). But I'm the kind of guy who thinks democracy is TOO good -- somewhat out of realism, but moreso out of gameplay reasons.
crimson238
War Correspondent
Unemployment would be nice to see. Perhaps it coudl work as this.
To keep it simple, work off hte the populations of the city. Assign x # of people who work at y builgind (say 100 people work at a temple or what not {this would represent the building itself and all other implied infrostructure}), another 1000 people could work per tile or what have you (im just using #s here with no real purpose) if it was un improved, if it's improved then the # goes up. And also so many people woudl be in your military (this coudl either be an average of all military units combined, or releate onlt to the units produced from that specific city, and each unit would get a differant # of "jobs" it creates) and some people would work for the government. Anyone left over is unemployed. This # is repsesented on the top of the city screen right under population. A new advisor coudl be created,; or it could be part of the domestic advisor screen, example London has a 52% unemployment rate!
Furthermore:
in a free government, these unemployed may leave your civilization for the next more power civilzation, giving their cities a population boost, and decreasing your cities' size, or in a totalertarian government, there would be a greater chance of revolt beginning (city lost to "barbarians", units evicted, you have to retake it.)
This is a rought idea. I don't know enough off hand to think of how to actually implement it... but yeah;.. my 2 cents
To keep it simple, work off hte the populations of the city. Assign x # of people who work at y builgind (say 100 people work at a temple or what not {this would represent the building itself and all other implied infrostructure}), another 1000 people could work per tile or what have you (im just using #s here with no real purpose) if it was un improved, if it's improved then the # goes up. And also so many people woudl be in your military (this coudl either be an average of all military units combined, or releate onlt to the units produced from that specific city, and each unit would get a differant # of "jobs" it creates) and some people would work for the government. Anyone left over is unemployed. This # is repsesented on the top of the city screen right under population. A new advisor coudl be created,; or it could be part of the domestic advisor screen, example London has a 52% unemployment rate!
Furthermore:
in a free government, these unemployed may leave your civilization for the next more power civilzation, giving their cities a population boost, and decreasing your cities' size, or in a totalertarian government, there would be a greater chance of revolt beginning (city lost to "barbarians", units evicted, you have to retake it.)
This is a rought idea. I don't know enough off hand to think of how to actually implement it... but yeah;.. my 2 cents
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