Where to go from here? (Deity)

[DrCron]

Hi everyone,

I'm once again opening a thread to ask for tips on a Deity game. It's 400 BC and the game looks ok, I have 6 fine cities. I'm playing with Lincoln again because I realized I never won a game with America, and he should be strong enough to win on Deity. This is my land right now (save file attached):

My main problem is that I have no metal whatsoever, so I need to work around that.

Apart from Opis Hammy has another city north of my empire, so he's surrounding me completely. Once I get currency I will trade with him for Monarchy (Ragnar, Pacal and Alex all think I'm becoming too advanced already) to revolt into HR and... OR? I don't really need many more buildings so it would only be for failgold, not sure about that tone.

Anyway, I have several paths ahead of me and I wanted to ask the more experienced players what sounds best:

1) Getting Masonry from Hammy too (I would have to give him IW), self-teching construction and attacking him with HAs and catapults (I don't have elephants).

2) Remain peaceful and go for the old cuirs rush. I think Hammy has more than one iron so initially I can trade with him, but I would need another partner after I attack (and no one seems to be willing to trade iron right now).

3) Using a GS that I have right now for bulbing compass (instead of saving him for Philo as I usually do) and teching optics. Then send a caravel to find better trading partners while I go for the lib race.


I would normally go for 2 but the iron situation suggests it's a bad idea. Oh, Alex and Pacal are fighting each other. Maybe with Currency I can bribe Ragnar to enter that war so everyone's busy when I attack hammy with cats + HAs. Since 3 is a wild card, maybe 1 should be my option here? I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Fippy]

There are some pretty big problems here

No foreign trade routes, you would either need a road or unfog coast towards Rags city.

Your real Cap could have been settled around 1E of Phila (and Palace moved), Academy in Washi is not great. Would be a really good city (if taken good care of), wet corn..horsies for some prod..and galleons of floodplains.

6 cities does not always work well, a good Cap always does.
I tried thinking about what i would do here now, but tbh no idea

 

[DrCron]

Your real Cap could have been settled around 1E of Phila (and Palace moved), Academy in Washi is not great. Would be a really good city (if taken good care of), wet corn..horsies for some prod..and galleons of floodplains.

6 cities does not always work well, a good Cap always does.

Yes, I thought about this. I considered building the academy somewhere else (and moving the palace) because of the bad terrain for cottages in Washington, but I realized that since Washington is the best one to run specialists it was going to be the highest beaker producer for me early on, so I prioritized early game beakers. Maybe I could use my current GS for a 2nd academy? I don't remember ever doing that but maybe it could save late game research. Boston would probably be the new capital, it has the best land imo.

Thanks for pointing out the trade routes! I completely forgot to build a road into Babylon!

 

[Lain]

Don't think 1) will work at all. Might try 3) and postpone war until Steel (perhaps early astro and settle overseas for Iron?) Had a similar game once, but it was on Immortal and with more land . So don't know about 10-City-Deity-Hammi until then.

Maybe hope that Pacal will be weaker/go for culture and pick him up later? In this case, you could trade for Iron with Hammi without problems (except the -80 gpt of course...)

I would have avoided trading for some of the smaller stuff.

Do you have the starting save ? Seems interesting. I like America. Will have to figure out how to put stuff into spoilers, but might post something tomorrow or so

 

[DrCron]

@Lain:

I'm attaching the starting save. For spoilers tag, hit the "spoil" button on the top menu in the "advanced" editor (you have to click "go advanced" when you reply).

I don't want to go for culture because a) I already won culture on Deity several times, I want to improve in other victory types and b) I don't have marble, stone or copper.

What do you mean by " I would have avoided trading for some of the smaller stuff"? I'm not trading for anything right now.

I could, indeed, postpone war until steel. Or rifling, and attack with Cavalry (which doesn't need iron). But I need to improve my tech rate if I do that, because these guys won't trade. It looks like everything points to getting optics and meeting the rest of the world. For either iron or tech trading.

 

[nate46]

1) Getting Masonry from Hammy too (I would have to give him IW), self-teching construction and attacking him with HAs and catapults (I don't have elephants).

I'm not a deity player but I do a LOT of catapult rushes on immortal and your rush is going to be ridiculously late even by immortal standards. i don't see how that can possibly work this game. Good luck.

 

[Lain]

I don't want to go for culture

I meant that Pacal might go for culture later and thus become a more favorable target than Hammy would be .

What do you mean by " I would have avoided trading for some of the smaller stuff"? I'm not trading for anything right now.

I meant in term of techs. Hunting, Meditation. Not sure what you traded for exactly but hitting the limit so early might slow you down. Not sure about anyone becoming friendly soon enough.

Thanks for the save . Will play some and post in spoilers.

 

[Lain]

Played this to the same date (Turn 99) for comparison. Experimenting a bit with power settling lately.

Spoiler :

Trying to steal a lot of land from Hammy. Just barely hanging on with my economy, but starting to spam cottages for quick recovery. There is still some land to block left, can't be stopping already



Ain't nobody got time for roads when Hammy is getting cocky trying to steal our land .



Long overdue Alpha, going to trade Aesthetics for it and backfill. Economy looks fine. Also started on Palace for moving Capital. It's going to be amazing. Also picked up Stone for Oxford.



Everyone fighting each other is slowing the game down, very nice. Can't even trade for Iron Working yet though. But picked up Monarchy, going to research Currency now and things will be golden. Trait-Combo is so great. Can grow and might be just in time for Philo bulb.



Oh Momma. He is going for Barb City, but I just gifted him Aesthetics and he jumped to Pleased. Have to settle something asap.



Empire and Trade Overview. Game might be going well, though it won't really count even If I win, having some map knowledge beforehand and stuff. But I'm all about learning right now anyway. Pride can come later.

 

[Lain]

Quick question for some Deity experts. This might be major spoiler btw.

Spoiler :

Do I settle this crap before someone grabs it? It's going to slow me down 100% in the short-term. Just looks like huge maintenance without much benefit until late game, but on the other hand, someone will get 15 cities off this. Maybe there is Iron. Remember, we don't have any.

I can't make a colony, right? ....... (semi-serious question)

 

[DrCron]

@Lain:

Spoiler :

Nice game, you were very effective stealing land from Hammy. Is Ragnar fighting Alex or are both of them just plotting? Remember Ragnar can plot at pleased. Even if you move him to Friendly after he started plotting, if you were the initial target then he'll still come against you.

Where are you moving your capital? I guess New York?

I'm not an expert but if there's no iron in that peninsula I see no reason to settle it. That mountain will make it hard for anyone to get troops from there into your land, so you can always leave crap land for your future vassal. If there's iron, oh, I will think about it too, tough choice.

 

[DrCron]

I'm not a deity player but I do a LOT of catapult rushes on immortal and your rush is going to be ridiculously late even by immortal standards. i don't see how that can possibly work this game. Good luck.

Keep in mind this game is ridiculously slow, at least on this continent. And even more now, when two AIs with the same religion are fighting each other. Maybe the 2 guys in the other continent are Mansa and Zara, and they are kicking our asses without us knowing it, but here everything is really slow. It's 400 BC and Hammy doesn't have IW. With enough catapults you can take down longbows, and I have great hammer production in all of my cities (5 of 6 are even settled on plains hills).

I still don't like it because in order to do it I would have to give techs to my victim, and I have nothing to go with the HAs to defend against spearmen since I can't build axemen, but in this particular game I don't think the date is as terrible as it looks. That being said, I admit that if it had been an easier decision (if I had elephants or copper) I would have totally started earlier.

 

[Lain]

@DrCron

Spoiler :

Alex declared on Ragnar. Pure lunacy of course, think he was pleased and his only actual friend! But that's probably better than them taking out 6-city-Hammy together. Tech pace picked up a bit. I got Philosophy on everyone, just getting Civil Service in. Research probably to Nationalism? No marble is a shame of course. Maybe should research Education asap instead for quick Universities, early Oxford and go Cavalry (doesn't require Iron ).

This will be my plan I guess. Or just Rifles with Spies and some Trebs? Though I rarely did that actually. But seems straightforward enough. Probably won't bother with Crap-Land in that case. I'd like to know: Does it actually slow the AI down if they settle that? Short-term, at least? If I'm aiming to decide the game at Cavalry, it might even be beneficial to leave it for someone. I have 10 cities, what more do I need?

Yes, New York is buzzing right now . Didn't play any further, this is latest position.

By the way, extremely unfortunate pick of AIs here. All of them go into WFYABTA mode rather quickly. Though does that mean they will keep techs from each other aswell unless Friendly?

 

[DrCron]

@Lain: I think they will, indeed, keep techs from each other too. Especially Ragnar, who won't trade techs at cautious. In your game, though, Hammy and Pacal have the same religion, so I think those 2 should trade some techs between them. It looks like Pacal will be your main rival.

That's a very nice capital. I should have thought about moving my capital from the beginning as well. I'll keep it in mind if I re-start (which will probably happen), but first I'll see what I can do from my current game.

 

[Lain]

Did you restart this one, @DrCron? Here is how my game went, though I am not really happy with it. Had to resort to nukes and that's always an admission of failure I feel. Anyways...

Spoiler :

So we had no Iron. I went Education as fast as possible for cheap Philo Universities and Oxford (had Stone). Libbed Nationalism and researched MT, then Rifling for war with Cavalry+Trebs.



Tech situation before I attacked. Nothing to worry about with the other continent.



Obligatory "build more phants than you can upgrade" stack



Went surprisingly easy. However, still no Iron, even after we capped him. Don't like the map script very much, seems you have to settle stuff with Astro. I didn't even have Coal or Uranium later with 25 cities. Hammy had Coal on an Island and I had to beat up Sitting Bull for Uranium in Ice City without food. Pretty sad. Especially for Sitting Bull.



Then I went and took all mainland cities from Greece, who was in endless war with Vikings/Mayas. I didn't cap him though because of possible Diplo backlash. So Maya capped him, breaking his Friendly relationship with Vikings. Don't know if it mattered.

I went to fight the Vikings at tech parity. Maya were too much ahead already. War with Infantry/Artillery against... Infantry/Artillery. It went reasonably well, but I feel really uneasy at warfare with Railroads. One bad stack move and you are toast. And I don't know about you guys, but I am kind of scared declaring on 19-city-deity Ragnar.







And then it became ugly. Did I lose too much time to allow this? I feel like once they reach Assembly Line they basically have Mech Infantry 5 turns later or something...



Yeah then I nuked him from our landmass. He almost had spaceship ready. Stupid: I took his capital on mainland and had to worry about some island which became the new capital. But situation was under control. Went and capped the other continent really quickly. Until the end, Pacal wouldn't capitulate (well, because of Greece I guess).

Ugly end really. Not very satisfying. But how do I tackle this monster? Not like I can go Tanks+Fighters+Bombers or something when he has Jet Fighters, Gunships and all that crap. Or can I? I never even tried. Basically, when they reach that kind of tech advantage, in my mind I've already decided to go Nukes. It's probably lazy and bad.





So that's that.

 

[georgjorge]

Congrats on the win, some strong plays here! Nuke wins count as well

On the first war, I'm not a fan of slowing down Cavalry by combining them with one-move Trebs. Hammy wasn't going to reach Military Science or Rifling, so Cavalry on their own would have been enough - you would have lost a few more of them but won the war sooner, allowing you to attack Ragnar sooner etc.

 

[DrCron]

@Lain: Nice win, and yes, the map script is really tough. I didn't re-start this one yet. In my old game I went for optics only to be dissappointed by the lack of good trading opportunities with Toku and a very delayed Sitting Bull.

Knowing the situation from scratch I wouldn't have cared about meeting those 2, and maybe I would have played a completely different game trying to go for HA + Cats in the early game. Otherwise I really can't think of anything better than what you did: waiting for rifling and attack with cavalry. I think it went pretty well all things considered, domination victory on Deity is never easy. Just one question: wouldn't it have been better to go against the Vikings before Greece? Alex wasn't going to be a danger anytime soon, and maybe dealing with Ragnar wouldn't have been so hard if he had another war to deal with on the opposite side of the map?

 

[Lain]

@georgjorge: Yes I agree, I just used Trebs in my main stack to take 1-2 tough cities. Other Cavalry stacks took the weak ones and I think that led to quick capitulation because I basically didn't lose any units. Also I wasn't sure, possibly he would have got Rifling and that way I still could have taken him. But maybe I should just have skipped MT and attack 7 turns earlier with just Rifles + Trebs.

Everyone except Hammy and Alex had Rifling. So that's why I decided to take out Greece really quickly while teching to Artillery etc. @DrCron. And mainly I was just scared of Ragnar I think

But I struggle with modern warfare. Especially with naval one. I am too slow at everything. I need Aircraft, Navy, Tanks. By the time I got all that they are 1 era ahead I feel. Window is so small.

This screams new thread though. I have like 2-3 games I want to upload right now. There isn't enough time and space here either .

 

[shakabrade]

What a huge map.
Big and small?

Very good win, Lain. It is difficult to control maps of this size.
I thought about shadowing this one, but seeing the size of it, I am not ready to make such commitment.

Anyway, some advice for maps like this. Although I played maybe one large map, I beat it before 1700AD so I feel like I can give some advice. You need multiple war-fronts, galleon chains, a lot of cease-fire abuses in order to cap people (as people will be afraid of your enemies and will refuse to cap). Also, Cavs can beat Longbows in coastal cities even if attacking directly from a boat (shaving you some turns of war)! Late game composition that can take most of the cities is Fighter+Marine (you literally take no losses with this composition if enemy doesn't have battleships and aircrafts) and/or Tanks+Bombers. Anything that is fast. Arty + Infantry moves too slow for this kind of map.

 

[DrCron]

What a huge map.
Big and small?

Very good win, Lain. It is difficult to control maps of this size.
I thought about shadowing this one, but seeing the size of it, I am not ready to make such commitment.

Anyway, some advice for maps like this. Although I played maybe one large map, I beat it before 1700AD so I feel like I can give some advice. You need multiple war-fronts, galleon chains, a lot of cease-fire abuses in order to cap people (as people will be afraid of your enemies and will refuse to cap). Also, Cavs can beat Longbows in coastal cities even if attacking directly from a boat (shaving you some turns of war)! Late game composition that can take most of the cities is Fighter+Marine (you literally take no losses with this composition if enemy doesn't have battleships and aircrafts) and/or Tanks+Bombers. Anything that is fast. Arty + Infantry moves too slow for this kind of map.

Thanks for the tips. The map was, indeed, "big and small", and I think I added low sea level. I wanted some water but I think 2 continents with no islands is boring. I'm playing another (easier) fractal map now, but when I (hopefully) win that one I'll come back and re-start this one. I'm curious about how to win with horses as the only war resource.

 

[MegaLurker]

I think the obvious answer is cavalry, then cavalry with airships, then anything because that should get you whatever strategic resources you need. There's a chance rifling comes too late, but then there's a good chance Cuirs would have also been too late in the same game. You can sometimes trade for iron (for an exorbident rate), mass upgrade/whip cuirs, cancel the trade, quickly secure iron with those cuirs.