Where's Israel?

[ruskyandrei]

The only real argument against the inclusion of America in Civ is, in my opinion, that the USA is not really a civilization. Not in a historical sense at any rate. That's not to say it won't develop into one in the future.

The way i see it, the defining aspect of a civilization is the way it is unique or different from others. You can easily attribute a certain mental image to many civilizations, their perceived image over the time, the USA however is, i believe, too young to have a lot of "cultural (and not only) identity" .

That said, i am not against the inclusion of the USA in Civ, i'm not against the inclusion of any nation in Civ for that matter. And i also believe that while the USA may have, under other circumstances (say, had it been formed 500 years earlier), developed a clear, unique and well determined cultural image, it is now too late for any nation do make any changes to that.

Globalisation is slowly merging all of the nations in the world together, and at the rate things are going, 100 years from now the only meaning of "i'm french" or "i'm german" or "i'm british" and so on is going to be "oh so you guys have that really good cooking/beer/tea/whatever..". I guess the US just has to hope it won't be remembered for it's burgers

 

[Babri]

American military? Superpower. No nation even begins to the rival the size or technological advancement of the US military.

Yeah but still loosing the war in Afghanistan.
Technologically their army is the most advanced but in size it is a bit smaller than China.
Perhaps the most important reason for US to be in is that Firaxis Head Quarters is in US.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

Nice rant. I mostly agree except for the economy...it's been a little wobbly as of late, and the debt is starting to pile up...

Ranting can be fun.

You are correct about the growing debt. In Civ terms the last few turns have not been played well. But America remains a wealthy nation with a high standard of living and a large economy and is still second to none.

While I would argue several of the points Sahkuhnder made, America does beyond any doubt deserve to be among the civs..

Also, this thread = derailed.

If you ever want to argue you won't hurt my feelings.

Sorry for the derail. Part of the reason Israel is as strong as it is today is because of the aid America has provided. I understand why Firaxis doesn't include controversial topics like Israel and Hitler.

Yeah but still loosing the war in Afghanistan.
Technologically their army is the most advanced but in size it is a bit smaller than China.
Perhaps the most important reason for US to be in is that Firaxis Head Quarters is in US.

Yes, Afghanistan is no longer a war and is an occupation and nation-building exercise. A strong military doesn't help much for an occupation. The USSR had a powerful military and failed before just as the US is now.

Number of men "in the army" isn't really a very accurate indicator of military strength. The Iraq military outnumbered the coalition forces and was soundly defeated. History is filled with similar examples. In Civ terms even many archers just don't stand up well against veteran cavalry.

Could you imagine the outrage if America was not included as a Civ?

 

[Babri]

Ranting can be fun.
Number of men "in the army" isn't really a very accurate indicator of military strength. The Iraq military outnumbered the coalition forces and was soundly defeated. History is filled with similar examples. In Civ terms even many archers just don't stand up well against veteran cavalry.

Smaller or bigger refers to size. Strength is referred by more powerful or weaker. I was saying that their size is bit smaller. That has nothing to do with strength.

Yes, Afghanistan is no longer a war and is an occupation and nation-building exercise. A strong military doesn't help much for an occupation. The USSR had a powerful military and failed before just as the US is now.

But America is still bringing more reinforcements so I consider it as a war. Otherwise they could use police instead of an army.

 

[StStutter]

Ranting can be fun.

You are correct about the growing debt. In Civ terms the last few turns have not been played well. But America remains a wealthy nation with a high standard of living and a large economy and is still second to none.

True, it can be argued that it no longer has the best economy, but it certainly has the largest.

Sorry for the derail. Part of the reason Israel is as strong as it is today is because of the aid America has provided. I understand why Firaxis doesn't include controversial topics like Israel and Hitler.

Yes, Afghanistan is no longer a war and is an occupation and nation-building exercise. A strong military doesn't help much for an occupation. The USSR had a powerful military and failed before just as the US is now.

Number of men "in the army" isn't really a very accurate indicator of military strength. The Iraq military outnumbered the coalition forces and was soundly defeated. History is filled with similar examples. In Civ terms even many archers just don't stand up well against veteran cavalry.

Afghanistan hasn't been a war for a long time. There are no armies that can stand up against the American one in my opinion. I guess the thing is though, today that isn't as important. Very few modern 'wars' are wars in the traditional sense.

 

[lissenber]

It`s not about if the civilization is "worthy" to be in game.

I think the real reason Israel is not ingame is because the developers are too lazy to add all the civilizations. Instead they spend minimum effort on it and only add countries an Average Joe would know. America. Egypt. Russia. Germany. China. Japan. India.

They would never add a countries nobody knows about. Take for example my homeland, Estonia. Not likely 50% people in this forum would recognise that country`s name. This would be a great civ if they would implement it. We had armored trains at WW2, it would be a most unique UU. And a worker boost or a food boost as a trait because in medieval times we were mostly farmers/slaves who farmed for all our life.

 

[GigaNerd]

Perhaps they'll release Israel as DLC; if Muslims don't want it, they don't have to suffer it!

 

[Theon]

What I find interesting about America is that it is basically the essence of globalisation. Almost every aspect of American culture can be traced back to cultural roots of other civilizations from around the world, who'se inhabitants have immigrated. America really is a melting pot of global culture, and that's what makes their culture so appealing around the world. It is recognizable to people everywhere because it was made by people from everywhere.

 

[StStutter]

It`s not about if the civilization is "worthy" to be in game.

I think the real reason Israel is not ingame is because the developers are too lazy to add all the civilizations. Instead they spend minimum effort on it and only add countries an Average Joe would know. America. Egypt. Russia. Germany. China. Japan. India.

They would never add a countries nobody knows about. Take for example my homeland, Estonia. Not likely 50% people in this forum would recognise that country`s name. This would be a great civ if they would implement it. We had armored trains at WW2, it would be a most unique UU. And a worker boost or a food boost as a trait because in medieval times we were mostly farmers/slaves who farmed for all our life.

Too lazy to add every country in the history of the world? Where do you draw the line?

Firaxis decided to draw the line at 18, that offers plenty of choice and variable games.

To choose those 18, Firaxis chose the 18 most 'worthy' civs determined by geographical location, cultural influence, military strength, imperial size, etc. Estonia doesn't make it into the top 18 in any of those criteria.

I love Canada but I recognise that it doesn't belong in civ.

With regards to Afghanistan... The coalition won the war years ago. They're no longer on the offensive. They're just defending what they've taken. The only reason that hasn't been solved yet is political, if they could do what they did to the Native Americans 400 years ago, Afghanistan would be completely westernized.

 

[LL_LordOmega]

Part of the reason Israel is as strong as it is today is because of the aid America has provided.

The only reason. Lets not forget that Israel is pretty much a bunch of European Jews who exiled the natives with western help, and thus most of the middle east hates them and us. And I am not saying this is the only reason for animosity, there are many more. Israel would have been destroyed if it weren't for western aid.

If you try to argue that it is morally right to give land to religious minorities, then you shouldn't have a problem with making Utah a Mormon state. Hell, I think they might be the religious majority. It would be more justified than the creation of Israel, considering the absolutely small amount of Jews living there at the time.

At least countries like the US created their own civilization. What did Israel do? Nothing. The land was already developed by the Palestinians. The land was given to them by the west. Their military and technology given to them. Pathetic. They do not deserve a spot.

 

[nomooon]

But you have to acknowledge the Jewish presence throughout euro/american economic history. They made good money, influenced governments and sometimes got the hate for it. I mean even for the recent American economic recession we had people putting the blame on Jewish financial practices ( i.e. Madoff)

Perhaps we can make specialists/units called Jewish merchants and they can bring in good income at the expense of more civil unrest

 

[StStutter]

Part of the reason Israel is as strong as it is today is because of the aid America has provided.

The only reason. Lets not forget that Israel is pretty much a bunch of European Jews who exiled the natives with western help, and thus most of the middle east hates them and us. And I am not saying this is the only reason for animosity, there are many more. Israel would have been destroyed if it weren't for western aid.

If you try to argue that it is morally right to give land to religious minorities, then you shouldn't have a problem with making Utah a Mormon state. Hell, I think they might be the religious majority. It would be more justified than the creation of Israel, considering the absolutely small amount of Jews living there at the time.

At least countries like the US created their own civilization. What did Israel do? Nothing. The land was already developed by the Palestinians. The land was given to them by the west. Their military and technology given to them. Pathetic. They do not deserve a spot.

I'm pretty sure you're more trying to make the point "I hate Israel!" more than anything else in this post.

 

[Lyoncet]

Their military and technology given to them. Pathetic. They do not deserve a spot.

Yeah, countries that don't develop cutting-edge technology and have huge armies are pretty pathetic. Good thing I live in one of what, like 10 countries in the world that's not worthless.

Besides, when did this become a "why isn't modern Israel a civ?" topic? Hasn't the though always been ancient Israel?

 

[nomooon]

But you have to acknowledge the Jewish presence throughout euro/american economic history. They made good money, influenced governments and sometimes got the hate for it. I mean even for the recent American economic recession we had people putting the blame on Jewish financial practices ( i.e. Madoff)

Perhaps we can make specialists/units called Jewish merchants and they can bring in good income at the expense of more civil unrest

This thread should not be derailed! again look at what i propose... doesn't that reflect how the Jewish population has been perceived in the history?

 

[StStutter]

This thread should not be derailed! again look at what i propose... doesn't that reflect how the Jewish population has been perceived in the history?

Judaism is a religion, it is not the same thing as Israeli.

Pakistan is a Muslim state but we don't attribute everything Muslim to Pakistan.

Jews may have been persecuted throughout history (they were) and there may have been jews who did great things (there were) but this has nothing to do with adding Israel to the civ list unless Israel did great things (they didn't really). Which civ would you say should be removed for Israel, and why are should Israel be included over them?

I'd say they may be close to being on even footing with Mali and Songhai, but those two were mostly included due to geographical location (as were the Iroquois).

 

[The Tollan]

I don't think the lack of an Israel based civ in the series has much (or anything) to do with Arab customers or anything to do with the historical influence of Israel. The culture which developed in Israel has had huge influence over large areas of the world. The religious influence of Judaism probably actually did promote cultural characteristics existing in the Middle East to spread further out than they would have otherwise.

I don't know exactly why Israel is not in the games; however, I would guess that the religious associations of Israel has something to do with it. It might be viewed as harder to portray it correctly in the games. If there were like 32 civs then we would probably see Israel in Civ V

 

[StStutter]

I don't think the lack of an Israel based civ in the series has much (or anything) to do with Arab customers or anything to do with the historical influence of Israel. The culture which developed in Israel has had huge influence over large areas of the world. The religious influence of Judaism probably actually did promote cultural characteristics existing in the Middle East to spread further out than they would have otherwise.

I don't know exactly why Israel is not in the games; however, I would guess that the religious associations of Israel has something to do with it. It might be viewed as harder to portray it correctly in the games.

Israel has absolutely not had huge impacts on the world. Judaism has. Two completely different things. Christianity was also founded in Israel, which probably had more of an impact on world history, but this is irrelevant to the conversation.

 

[nomooon]

Judaism is a religion, it is not the same thing as Israeli.

Pakistan is a Muslim state but we don't attribute everything Muslim to Pakistan.

Jews may have been persecuted throughout history (they were) and there may have been jews who did great things (there were) but this has nothing to do with adding Israel to the civ list unless Israel did great things (they didn't really). Which civ would you say should be removed for Israel, and why are should Israel be included over them?

I'd say they may be close to being on even footing with Mali and Songhai, but those two were mostly included due to geographical location (as were the Iroquois).

see my point was that civs in the game could recruit Jewish merchant unit/specialist, so that represents the Jewish diaspora while making the Jewish presence felt throughout, and I said those units/specialists could bring in extra income at the cost of civil unrest according to how they were perceived

 

[6-Star General]

Perhaps we can make specialists/units called Jewish merchants and they can bring in good income at the expense of more civil unrest

That would be quite accurate, yes...

 

[StStutter]

see my point was that civs in the game could recruit Jewish merchant unit/specialist, so that represents the Jewish diaspora while making the Jewish presence felt throughout, and I said those units/specialists could bring in extra income at the cost of civil unrest according to how they were perceived

Ok I see. Having a citizen unit would to generate gold somehow would be a little odd. Having it as a specialist would make sense, but I see no reason to associate a religion with it. There are no other religious associations in civ.