How would YOU design Israel in Civ 7 if allowed?(Made this because others are also)

[Zaarin]

From a gameplay perspective, I don't really want to cut any civ from certain victory conditions.

I've won a culture victory as Genghis Khan; no civ except Mvemba is excluded from any victory condition.

Your design doesn't seem to prevent it either, and don't have direct bonuses for cultural or diplomatic victory, other then improvement with culture output which would output tourism after flight, but it is too small of a bonus (IIRC improvents give tourism only from inherit culture yield, so improvements adjacent to Ebenezer wouldn't get tourism from it).

All you need for diplomatic victory is Gold, which Judah gets from its Holy Site buildings, from Camps, and from some Plantations and Pastures, and which they could augment with beliefs and Commercial Hubs. Having an abundance of Faith also gives Judah an edge in buying great people, whether Great Merchants for pursuing diplomatic victory or GWAM for culture.

From one side you're right, Judaism by design might be condfessed only by hebrews, but there is a big nuance in it. Jewish identity doesn't fit into concepts of race or nationality, at least from a jewish culture standpoint, because this culture has a mechanism that makes a jew from a non-jew (at some point in my life I was suggested to do it), which doesn't make sense from perspective of concepts mentioned above.

Like I said, not all Jews are in agreement about who constitutes a Jew. E.g., it's my understanding that in Orthodox Judaism converts to Judaism do not count towards the minyan and cannot lead prayer; among Reformed Jews and Karaites they do and can. Certain rabbinical authorities have argued that converts don't count as Jews at all and should simply follow the Noahide law (if I'm not mistaken, the Sadducees and Essenes were historically both in this camp). Even at the high point of proselytism, Greeks were much more eager to become Jews than Jews were to receive them.

Don't forget that we're talking about Sid Meier's Civilization series, which is historical fiction and ability to do some historical nonsense is important part of its appeal. I'm simply have an approach to do fun stuff with civs, not to be dead serious about it. After all, you can't really correctly squeeze any culture into 4 bonuses in computer game, not to mention culture that has more than 3000 years of history.

Of course. But the historical flavor is a big part of what makes Civ special to me. I love the civs that do something both interesting and flavorful like Civ6's take on the Inca or Phoenicia, and I dislike the civs that lack that historical flavor, like Babylon and Sumer. Judah was not densely populated, highly urbanized, or politically influential, and I think it's more interesting to reflect a less developed civ that emphasizes resistance to outside influence, quietly pursuing victory more or less in isolation. (That's still not perfectly historically accurate as Israel and Judah were profoundly influenced by Egypt, Babylon, Persia, and Hellenism in succession; Canaanite culture wasn't particularly original, though Jewish monotheism certainly was.) So really what I was aiming for was an interesting civ that reflects its history and plays the map a little differently from other civs. It's not S-tier, and it doesn't break the game rules quite like Mali or Māori, just pushes a slightly different strategy.

 

[Zegangani]

but only Jerusalem as CS (in previous civs this city is even listed amongs Roman Cities!)

I don't understand why Jerusalem is always associated with Israel. Jerusalem, or Urshalim, was a City established by Canaanites who called it "Yebus", long before any Kingdom of Israel. It may be the first Capital of the United Kingdom of Israel lead by King David, but the first 2 Kings (Saul and Ish-bosheth) of the Kingdom of Israel didn't have Jerusalem as the Capital at that Time, and which wasn't even part of the Kingdom back then IIRC.
Even the History of Jerusalem clearly showcases that Israel (either Kingdom, United Kingdom, or Hasmonean Israel...etc) had as much control, in terms of Time of rule, over the City as Christians or the Romans/Byzantines, and Muslims had even much longer control over it. So, Jerusalim being in the City Names List of Romans is totally fine for me, if other Civs that had control over the City also have Jerusalem in their City Names List as well. Although, it being a City-State now is the best Solution to that, and makes much more sense.

So, IMO, assocciating Jerusalem with Israel can only be justified with The United Kingdom of Israel as a Civ. Any association outside that is a huge defamation of its History and religious importance in Christianity and Islam. On that note, it's the same way I don't see Venice CS representing Kingdom of Italy, or Fez CS representing any specific Islamic Moroccan dynasty.

That being said, I disapprove of Firaxis choosing the Lion of Judah as the City-State Icon of Jerusalem. I even made a private Mod that changes it to something more neutral: a White Dove.

 

[Zaarin]

I don't understand why Jerusalem is always associated with Israel. Jerusalem, or Urshalim, was a City established by Canaanites who called it "Yebus", long before any Kingdom of Israel. It may be the first Capital of the United Kingdom of Israel lead by King David, but the first 2 Kings (Saul and Ish-bosheth) of the Kingdom of Israel didn't have Jerusalem as the Capital at that Time, and which wasn't even part of the Kingdom back then IIRC.

So, IMO, assocciating Jerusalem with Israel can only be justified with The United Kingdom of Israel as a Civ.

Even under the United Kingdom, archaeological evidence suggests that David's and Solomon's authority probably ended a few miles outside the city walls--the very picture of a city-state in the sea of city-states and petty kingdoms that was the Iron Age Levant.

That being said, I disagree with the rest of your post. Of course Jerusalem is in the game to represent Israel and the Jews, even if it has also been a Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Frankish, Arab, and Turkish city at various points in its history. That being said, the city is holy to a plethora of religions (notably Jews, Christians of all stripes, and Muslims, but also Mandaeans, Druze, and probably others) so a city-state is the most neutral way to represent it, and is historically justified by its history as a city-state. The Lion of Judah is also a fairly neutral representation, as it has also found use in the other Abrahamic faiths--whereas something like the Star of David or a menorah would be much more explicitly Jewish.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't understand why Jerusalem is always associated with Israel. Jerusalem, or Urshalim, was a City established by Canaanites who called it "Yebus", long before any Kingdom of Israel. It may be the first Capital of the United Kingdom of Israel lead by King David, but the first 2 Kings (Saul and Ish-bosheth) of the Kingdom of Israel didn't have Jerusalem as the Capital at that Time, and which wasn't even part of the Kingdom back then IIRC.
Even the History of Jerusalem clearly showcases that Israel (either Kingdom, United Kingdom, or Hasmonean Israel...etc) had as much control, in terms of Time of rule, over the City as Christians or the Romans/Byzantines, and Muslims had even much longer control over it. So, Jerusalim being in the City Names List of Romans is totally fine for me, if other Civs that had control over the City also have Jerusalem in their City Names List as well. Although, it being a City-State now is the best Solution to that, and makes much more sense.

So, IMO, assocciating Jerusalem with Israel can only be justified with The United Kingdom of Israel as a Civ. Any association outside that is a huge defamation of its History and religious importance in Christianity and Islam. On that note, it's the same way I don't see Venice CS representing Kingdom of Italy, or Fez CS representing any specific Islamic Moroccan dynasty.

It's easy to link Jerusalem with being the Hebrews/Israel, in game at least, because it is not under the city-list of Romans, Byzantines, Arabians etc., while a civ called Israel isn't in the game at all.
Plus, it's Bologna who would be part of the Kingdom of Italy, not Venice. They are their own thing.

 

[Ezerin]

I've won a culture victory as Genghis Khan; no civ except Mvemba is excluded from any victory condition.

Sure, but usually civs designed with direction toward certain victory conditions or have exceptional capabilities for gold/production/food(paired with housing) generation for generalist civs. Your design doesn't fit in any of those categories.

All you need for diplomatic victory is Gold, which Judah gets from its Holy Site buildings, from Camps, and from some Plantations and Pastures, and which they could augment with beliefs and Commercial Hubs. Having an abundance of Faith also gives Judah an edge in buying great people, whether Great Merchants for pursuing diplomatic victory or GWAM for culture.

If I understand ability right, you get 4,5-5.5 from 3 religious buildings by default and additional 3 for each 6 envoys per religious CS, I haven't seen any other gold bonus, correct me if I'm wrong. It doesn't look like serious bonus to gold, beside it, gold doesn't directly associated with diplomatic victory, how many Aid Requests will be triggered very much depends on disaster intensity level.

It also doesn't seem that Israel will swim in faith, Ebenezer looks like good improvement (tho i don't understand what it refers to thematically, if it refers to this, then bonuses and ability to build multiple instances of this improvement doesn't make sense), but in terms of just faith output, it looks likes it'll barely compensate for lack of HSs. Khmer and Ethiopia both have faith bonuses from infrastructure, but they don't sacrifice HSs for it. One HS with 3 buildings gives minimum 9 faith plus additional 4 from excessive GPP, on top of it put potential adjacency bonus and +6 faith per religious CS. If anythings, it looks like Israel will have to jump through hoops to make somewhat decent amount of faith, sacrificing production along the way (plantations, farms and pastures aren't very productive).

 

[bbbt]

To me the most impressive was the Jewish diaspora throughout history, their position as sort of the 'original' immigrants/emigrants/minority enclave throughout hundreds of years, and how they managed to maintain such a strong cultural and identity even through out that.

Of course, that's something that a game like Civ is completely unable to replicate well, especially with it's emphasis on one Civilization 'winning'.

It also seems odd to me to be able to have Judaism as a religion with missionaries and inquisitors(!!), but it would obviously be odd to not include Judaism as option.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Make David the leader.

David’s ability is called “Psalms”. Your palace generates Great Musician points

Their UU is a slinger, 25 ranged attack. Building a pasture gives you a free slinger

Add an achievement for killing a GDR with a slinger called “Goliath”

Israel’s unique infrastructure is called a Kibbitz. Available from the start of the game. Adds +2 food, +2 Commerce, and +2 Faith to any desert tile. Can only be built on deserts.

Israel’s civ ability is Walls Of Jerico. Melee and anti-cavalry units' attacks do full damage to the city's walls.

 

[Zaarin]

Make David the leader.

David’s ability is called “Psalms”. Your palace generates Great Musician points

Their UU is a slinger, 25 ranged attack. Building a pasture gives you a free slinger

Add an achievement for killing a GDR with a slinger called “Goliath”

Israel’s unique infrastructure is called a Kibbitz. Available from the start of the game. Adds +2 food, +2 Commerce, and +2 Faith to any desert tile. Can only be built on deserts.

Israel’s civ ability is Walls Of Jerico. Melee and anti-cavalry units' attacks do full damage to the city's walls.

This would be Civ6's style: just make the entire civ a meme. You forgot the theme music is "If I Were a Rich Man."

 

[reddishrecue]

It's hard to choose David when you have Solomon and other leaders that could also lead Israel. Solomon also used to be the top score in civilization 1 like August Caesar is now in civilization 6. I would bring back Solomon.

 

[Zaarin]

It's hard to choose David when you have Solomon and other leaders that could also lead Israel.

I personally prefer a post-United Kingdom leader, as I've said, but if we're choosing between David and Solomon, I'm not sure what makes Solomon more interested than Solomon. Neither is directly attested, but David at least has (later) coins reading בית דויד ("House of David"). Plus David has the better parts of Samuel devoted to him, while the material on Solomon is much briefer.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

But what's more important to Ethopia history that they became Monotheist after Queen Sheeba visited King Somonon. originally Ethiopians were Judaist (Black practitioners of Judaism), later they became Christian.

 

[Zaarin]

But what's more important to Ethopia history that they became Monotheist after Queen Sheeba visited King Somonon. originally Ethiopians were Judaist (Black practitioners of Judaism), later they became Christian.

Allegedly, though there's little evidence of that that predates the Late Middle Ages. At any rate, the Queen of Sheba was almost certainly the Queen of Saba' (Sabaea) in Yemen.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Allegedly, though there's little evidence of that that predates the Late Middle Ages. At any rate, the Queen of Sheba was almost certainly the Queen of Saba' (Sabaea) in Yemen.

I guess, at the time, Yemen and Ethiopia was under the same kingdom of the queen Sheba, and his son Manelik I was the first king of Solomonic dyniasty in Ethiopia

 

[Patine]

Judah was not an independent polity at the time; he would be a very strange choice for leader.


Nehemiah is long after the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). The Hebrew Bible is called the Tanakh because it is composed of three parts: the Tōrā (Law), Năḇīʾīm (Prophets), and Kăṯūḇīm (Writings).


I'm also a Christian but would prefer any Israel/Judah/Samaria/Judea civ to be based on extrabiblical as well as Biblical accounts since the target audience of Civ is not only Jews and Christians. I believe Nehemiah's existence and governorship is generally accepted by scholars, but like I said, he ruled over the satrapy of Yehud Medinata, not an independent Judah.

So, realistically, more like a unique Governor for Cyrus.

But, speaking of alternative leader to Jews, we also can have Jesus.

Yes, let's simultaneously outrage Jews, Christians, and Muslims for no good reason.

I don't think so, Jesus was the king of Jews..

Even according to Christian eschatology, Christ did not rule on the earth in a secular sense in His original lifetime of Nativity. The Kingdom of God will, according to such beliefs, superimpose on the world after the Rapture, Return, and Judgement, and Christ will be King Eternal on Earth as the Father is in Heaven. But, in that light, He'd have no rival civ's.

Jews and Muslims have NEVER acknowledged Him as having any regnal qualities.

That makes more sense.


I never envisioned Israel as a civ that's trying to win religious victory. IRL Jews have ranged from lukewarm to outright rejecting converts (which is still the case; lots of debate within Judaism as to "who is a Jew"). I envisioned it as a civ that uses its strong religious turtling to advance towards culture or diplomatic victory. Considering the civ is already swimming in Faith from other sources and the Zion Temple's buildings are pumping out Gold, Food, and Culture as well as Faith, I think it's a pretty robust design. Another reason that I like the design of only one Holy Site is it's one less district to build, which ties into the general theme I was going for of Judah as a very rural civ that builds few districts.

(Regarding holy places, a few points there: my design was much more compactly built around First Temple Judah, when the prohibition was much stricter, but synagogues also developed outside of Judea for the very practical reason that the Temple of Jerusalem was inaccessible for many years and, even after it was made accessible, was far away from Jews living in Alexandria, Antioch, Seleucia-Ctesiphon, etc. Second Temple Judaism was very different from First Temple Judaism--and, of course, it would change again after the destruction of the Second Temple, along with all schools of Judaism other than the Pharisees as the Sicarii murdered the Sadducees and the Romans eliminated the Essenes and Christianity became totally divorced from its Jewish origins.)

There has been a perennial issue about the qualifications of being a Jew, especially by blood, in that You-Know-Who, He-Shall-Not-Be-Named, the Dark Lord Himself (and I DON'T mean Voldemort - and I am name checking because some people are sensitive about him being stated outright - and it's illegal in a few countries) having a possible, 'crypto-Jewish," maternal grandmother ("crypto-Jew," was a term used for a Jew who was secretive or elusive about their ethno-religious identity, which was a common phenomenon in such days - even George Burns felt the need to do such, hence, "Burns," is not a Jewish name, but was changed).

 

[Patine]

This would be Civ6's style: just make the entire civ a meme. You forgot the theme music is "If I Were a Rich Man."

That would be appropriate to Solomon. He was apparently swimming in loot. His trade deal with Hiram II of Tyre in the phoenix (or royal purple dye) made both kings filthy rich, and Hiram gave a gift of money to help refurbish the Temple in Jerusalem, and Solomon gave reciprocal gifts.

 

[Zaarin]

I guess, at the time, Yemen and Ethiopia was under the same kingdom of the queen Sheba, and his son Manelik I was the first king of Solomonic dyniasty in Ethiopia

Yemen and Ethiopia have always been closely linked culturally, but again there is no evidence for Judaism in Ethiopia before the Ethiopians started to invest their identity in Judaism in the Late Middle Ages.

Even according to Christian eschatology, Christ did not rule on the earth in a secular sense in His original lifetime of Nativity. The Kingdom of God will, according to such beliefs, superimpose on the world after the Rapture, Return, and Judgement, and Christ will be King Eternal on Earth as the Father is in Heaven. But, in that light, He'd have no rival civ's.

And even then, only a subset of Protestants would agree with this particular eschatology. (A lot of American Protestants would be very surprised to learn that premillennialism and the Rapture were both developed by a fiery Irish Presbyterian in the late 19th century. The traditional Christian view has been that Christ will reign on Earth for a thousand years, and then the end will come with the creation of a New Heaven and a New Earth.) But yes, the entire point of the Incarnation was that He came to save our souls, not take over the government.

That would be appropriate to Solomon. He was apparently swimming in loot. His trade deal with Hiram II of Tyre in the phoenix (or royal purple dye) made both kings filthy rich, and Hiram gave a gift of money to help refurbish the Temple in Jerusalem, and Solomon gave reciprocal gifts.

Though "If I Were a Rich Man" is a daydream by a Russian Jewish peasant about what he'd do if he weren't poor so... Without comment on the wealth of Solomon, though, Tyre and Sidon were already amply wealthy from their many tributary colonies and their trade all over the Mediterranean and possibly into the Red Sea in Tyrian purple, cedar of Lebanon, fine glass, wine, olive oil, byssus cloth, and spices.

 

[aieeegrunt]

That would be appropriate to Solomon. He was apparently swimming in loot. His trade deal with Hiram II of Tyre in the phoenix (or royal purple dye) made both kings filthy rich, and Hiram gave a gift of money to help refurbish the Temple in Jerusalem, and Solomon gave reciprocal gifts.

For rather obvious reasons I avoided MAKING A JEWISH CIV REVOLVE AROUND MONEY

As far as my ideas being “memes”, please

EVERY civ in this game is a meme by that standard. Look at Canada ffs. Their UU is a Mounty which is ridiculous.

Israel is already a landmine. Making their leader Solomon is just pouring gasoline on the landmines

So I went with David. What is David known for? Composing psalms and of course using a sling. Great Musicians and slingers logically follow

I don’t think anyone has a slinger UU yet. So we make that the UU.

Israel did the game equivelant of an ancient era rush of the Philistinnes etc. Part of that was breaching the supposedly impregnable walls of Jericho. So a wall breaching civ ability follows

Finally there is making a desert bloom. We give them a way to make good use of desert tiles

If that is a meme, every fracking civ in the game is a meme.

Oh look the French leader drinks “wine”. The German leader gets a bonus for invading small countries (you might as well call it Lebensraum at that point). One of the American leaders, his troops get magical “manifest destiny” superpowers. Another one has Plantation owners rebel when he industrializes. The Aztecs get a slave taking mechanic.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

The German leader gets a bonus for invading small countries

One of the American leaders, his troops get magical “manifest destiny” superpowers.

The Aztecs get a slave taking mechanic.

I think you're mistaking "historically significant things people were known for" as "memes."

Teddy was an avid imperialist and supporter of Manifest Destiny, so it makes sense that he would get a bonus towards that.

And Barbarossa, during his time as Holy Roman Emperor, was in a perpetual struggle with the Italian City-States and Papacy over who would hold dominance in Northern Italy.

And I don't need to explain the Aztecs, nor do I particularly want to get into it. :V

While these abilities can be construed as simplistically as you did, it takes away from what they actually mean.

 

[Zaarin]

EVERY civ in this game is a meme by that standard. Look at Canada ffs. Their UU is a Mounty which is ridiculous.

Canada was on my mind, yes.

Israel is already a landmine. Making their leader Solomon is just pouring gasoline on the landmines

That's why I still champion Hezekiah, who is attested outside the Bible, even if Judah was politically speaking a backwater third-tier petty kingdom in the scheme of things. (Though that's still probably more than the United Monarchy was.)

Israel did the game equivelant of an ancient era rush of the Philistinnes etc.

More like they went revanchist after the Philistines annexed basically their entire coastline after losing their capitals (current consensus is that the Philistines were multiethnic). Though after people have been living there for hundreds of years I'm not sure it's fair to call it revanchism. On the other hand, hard to blame the inland Canaanites who would eventually coalesce into the Judeans and Israelites for not taking on the regional superpower. (Archaeological evidence points to the Philistines absolutely dominating the area for a time before primacy shifted to the Canaanites, both the nascent Judeo-Israelites and especially the Phoenicians, who would continue to be the dominant local power until all of them were conquered successively by the Egyptians, Assyrians, Neo-Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans.)

Finally there is making a desert bloom. We give them a way to make good use of desert tiles

No one but a few nomadic shepherds lived in the Negev or Arabah, though. Israel isn't all or even mostly desert; most of it is the same kind of Mediterranean semiarid scrubland you'll find in Italy and Anatolia. Israel/Judah no more made the desert bloom than the Russians did the tundra, with the difference that Israel owns a lot less desert.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Yemen and Ethiopia have always been closely linked culturally, but again there is no evidence for Judaism in Ethiopia before the Ethiopians started to invest their identity in Judaism in the Late Middle Ages.

Maybe the judaism just start in the royal familly and take a long to spread around all ethiopian society, but as soon of Solomon, is hard to belief the Manelik I isn't a jew it self, he is son of a Jew.
But it's said the Ethiopia is also the first cristian kingdom in the world, because they are just jews before christ.