Was he corrupt? I thought he was just a fanatic. And how much were you puppeteering me?almost, in INES your King was quite ermm corrupt. And you had a very intresting puppet master in your high priest.
I had kings that could do no wrong
----
anyway, In LINESII iggy has had my king deposed. I've actually got plans to follow his rise and fall of power with some stories.
Pity about the month long hiatus (and then you know, i'm on holiday, why does this always happen iggy?).
While We Wait: Part 2
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
- Start date
- Status
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
You know Iggy, I think you should ask people to write and send LINESII orders during the hiatus, so that you don't need to wait another week after your return to restart updating. 
That's lovely. It doesn't matter when you look at what he had to work with. Basically, he made Rome, but in North Africa, and with the naval and commercial advantages of a Carthage. I never saw how the mechanics of that worked - and how the Punic economy never really took a hit when commerce was damaged, especially as compared to, say, my economy, which was almost constantly at rock bottom despite my efforts in the other direction. I guess the thing that really killed me was the fact that I was gone at the exact moment to kill him - at the end of IT I, when I was moving here and therefore had no Internet for two weeks, so he was able to survive the First Transpoenic War.
Where would they come from? Besides, if Stormy had actually trusted me and agreed to put up the troops at a later time instead of mounting that horrid spring offensive, we'd actually have cleared out the EASTERN front, which was the point...but in the West, I never saw why your Italian commander never surrendered. He had no supplies for most of the year, and a lot of men, who were inside a country that was seething in revolt...the point was not to destroy your army there but to capture it with minimal bloodshed by forcing it to surrender due to lack of supplies. I never saw why it didn't, and NK can tell you that I was extremely annoyed for quite a while. Oh well, what's done is done.Insane_Panda said:
Israelite9191
You should be reading
It lived on as a language of the Church and of academia, that says nothing about its artistic value.
I fully agree with the first two sentences. It's the last one that I have trouble with.Latin is a language of Romans.
I have read some of the Latin poets, a long while back, and frankly, I found the poetry lacking. Compare that to, say, French, where every word in even the most mundane situations has a certain beauty of expression and depth of humanism. Greek, on the other hand, I do like. I have nothing aganst ancient languages (I did mention Hebrew in my list of prefered languages), just against Latin.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
@Symph: I don't see what the problem is with a public thread. Surely you can just filter out the nonsense? I still think that some feedback is better than none.
Because you haven't PMed me anything, and I'm sure you haven't just abandoned it. I just want some input.
Insane_Panda
Deity
Well, remember, we still had naval superiority in the Mediterranean, supplies could be transported by sea. I generally spent an exorbitant amount on logistics every turn, ensuring that my men had what they needed.
As for the Latin-French debate, I will just echo Israelite's sentiments that French is indeed a beautiful language. I do not know as much French as some of you may think, and I cannot read much beyond simple sentences (though I am studying it), but it is a very, very beautiful language. I've read some translated Proust, and his melodic sentences and skill with imagery were very powerful. I can't imagine how much better it would sound in French
One day though, I will be fluent, and snub my nose at my compatriots, les americains!
That was the ONE YEAR when I had naval superiority in the Med. Remember the update? I killed all of your ships, unless I drove them into port in Provence or Spain. That was the main reason why I was pissed.
Oruc
Reactionary
I don't see what your so upset about, you destroyed him in the end. you should be happy Roman cultural influence survived even though its people were failures.
Somehow Carthage with its success didn't inspire people like Rome did.
Roman culture didn't survive because of anything I did, it was because of Panda liking it better than Punic culture. I mean, the wars I had with Sheep basically destroyed Europe's prospects of being powerful for the next few hundred years, and I don't think it's made me a better person. It's sort of a shame to know that the most memorable thing I've done in the NESing forums is to inaugurate and fight a several hundred year intermittent war with someone fueled mostly on copied stories from ancient sources, polar bear stories, several alliances, petulant fit-throwing (you should have seen some of the 3m0 crap I put in my orders...das, I really pity you), and obsessive research on ancient warfare, and who still lost most of the time anyway.
It's not really that upsetting, and part of it is to learn how to do what he did, so as to do similar things in my own games later.
It inspired me to waste time fighting endless wars with Sheep.emu said:
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
Not to mention the whole similarities to Nazism was quite disturbing and sheep's attempts at mass propaganda before he even had paper
das
Regeneration In Process
alex994 said:I swear, it sounds like you're implying me and my actions as the various Chinas when you refer to yourself
No, you are one of those weakling "pragmatic" reformers. Send Chinese children to study in Europe? Improve trade connections? Industrialise?! Come on.
Dachspmg said:
From the other military operations, none of which were nearly as vital or demanded nearly so many troops. In other words, I quite agree with Panda, if anything could've defeated him, it would've been your offensive - had it not been so dreadfully undermanned, allowing that huge "surrounded" French army to break out and thus denying you a resounding turning point victory.
As for poetry, neither French nor Latin strike me as particularily good, to be honest. German, on the other hand, does.
Carthaginian culture was indeed a very weird thing in that world. It certainly wasn't fit for dissemination outside of Carthage, being so tied to the Empire's wellbeing. Not in non-Punic Europe at any rate.
Symphony D.
Deity
Identifying "industrialization" as a Western reform pretty much dooms China no matter what.No, you are one of those weakling "pragmatic" reformers. Send Chinese children to study in Europe? Improve trade connections? Industrialise?! Come on.
In fact, real Chinese would probably reflect on the fact that they had industrial machinery, along with things like gunpowder weapons, long, long before the Europeans did, and that Europeans were merely usurpers and perverters of the true Chinese tradition of mechanization.
das
Regeneration In Process
Real Chinese may well do so, but we're Manchu, so no. Just no.
At any rate, not as long as the old system is functioning well after some Neoconfucianist reforms (of the kind that failed in Japan because Japan isn't China). When the Europeans actually manage to inflict any serious damage, a quick industrial catch-up can be initialised, especially as catching up is always easy (easier than getting ahead in the first place, that is).
At any rate, not as long as the old system is functioning well after some Neoconfucianist reforms (of the kind that failed in Japan because Japan isn't China). When the Europeans actually manage to inflict any serious damage, a quick industrial catch-up can be initialised, especially as catching up is always easy (easier than getting ahead in the first place, that is).
Symphony D.
Deity
Yes, but the farther you fall behind, the longer it also takes, which is not good if you get so far behind that say, wide-eyes have tanks rumbling through Chengdu and all you have are hordes of infantry to grease their treads. Hyperbole: yes, illustrating the point: yes.
By this logic all Europe has to do is wait until you are so far behind until there is no hope of you catching up in time to defeat them, and invade then. Ignoring, of course, that industrialization tends to be extremely stressful on a society no matter how organized it is since it introduces new requirements for living, as Japan found out despite their huge industrial success--their philosophy remained distinctly pre-industrial it was forced to change at the end of WWII. So even if you could suddenly up and industrialize, odds still aren't that good that society will be able to handle it or use it intelligently, particularly if giant armies are invading at the same time and decadent commercial influence is seeping in. Bad combination.
There's a reason gradual change tends to be more successful than sticking to one paradigm, throwing it away, and picking up another completely different one overnight. Japan's example is fairly unique, and other similar ones, like the Stalinist USSR, are too--both having few external problems at the time they attempted such things, and none of the... unique problems... that historically plague China.
[EDIT] Wrong offensive moniker. Go me.
das
Regeneration In Process
However, OTL China is also a fairly good example. So, no.
Plus I seriously doubt that any of the Europeans would really bother to seriously invade China, especially if they have no such precedent as the First Opium War. They have better things to do, like fighting each other - especially in NESes.
Plus I seriously doubt that any of the Europeans would really bother to seriously invade China, especially if they have no such precedent as the First Opium War. They have better things to do, like fighting each other - especially in NESes.
Symphony D.
Deity
Not really. China was a total mess from when the Qing Dynasty collapsed right up until Mao Zedong was marginalized and someone sensible (Deng Xiaoping et al) took control of the economy, and most of what they were able to do, they were able to do precisely because Mao had destroyed (or tried very hard to) the basis of Chinese culture, and they did it by emulating the West because Mao's attempts at decentralized economy had failed horribly. They again also did it in a fairly isolated environment without much external pressure. And Chinese culture has also radically been altered in the process, see also: the destruction of the extended Chinese family unity and marginalization of elders similar to Western Society.
No major example exists of a country that stuck to an outmoded economic philosophy to preserve its culture until its very darkest hour, changed right then, and survived to overcome its enemies that I'm aware of.
About the best that can be done is one of two things: 1. don't industrialize, and die later, because industrializing during massive social, economic, political, or military upheaval is a recipe for disaster, or 2. industrialize on your own terms by taking just the technology and stripping out the philosophy and what not, in which case you'll eventually have to confront those same problems anyway.
das
Regeneration In Process
The latter seems like an acceptable solution; furthermore, it was the one advocated by some of the more pragmatical/dedicated Neoconfucianists after the First Opium War.
Oruc
Reactionary
Not to mention the whole similarities to Nazism was quite disturbing and sheep's attempts at mass propaganda before he even had paper
From what I remember it seemed anybody could have been a Punic except Greeks, Romans and Eastern types
Insane_Panda
Deity
See! My huge military positions copied into multiple PMs were useful. I had a large army pretty much everywhere.
- Status
