While We Wait: Part 5

[Amon Savag]

The European Union doesn't infringe on people's freedoms. The countries' governments that are a part of the European Union infringe on their people's freedoms. Don't make it seem like America's states were constantly at war or something. While they may not have agreed with eachother on issues, that was a good thing. It's their right to do so. If we here in Missouri don't like universal health care, we should have the right to keep our free-market system. You in whatever state you live in should have the right to adopt universal health care, should you choose to. Should my state adopt ******** policies, I would move to a different state. But when the federal government chooses to adopt crappy policies, and mandates that I abide by them, I'm stuck, or I have to move to a different country.

 

[Shadowbound]

It ever strike you that a patchwork of disparate legal, financial, and medical systems might be a bad thing?

 

[Neverwonagame3]

I was going to avoid backing Amon Savag for fear of being a straw man argument against his case, but given how he seems to be looking unpopular that seems moot now.

My own view is that while if I were setting up a constitution it would be far more centralised then the current one (I am willing to debate Amon if he wants on this), if you have a constitution made you should actually keep it, as opposed to breaking the law. As Washington said, the people should amend the constitution rather then break the law.

I can't find my earlier arguments in it's defence, but I will give (though it may overlap) a defence here. If the Constitution can be amended by the courts, the will of the judge (as opposed to the will of the constitution-makers) prevails. Sometimes it is worse- a President can force their power unconstitutionally (e.g.- American "civil war").

If (it often is not) something is genuinely mandated by changing society, the best thing to do is to wait on events to expose this. The people's hand will then be forced, and an amendment will be voted. This is better then judges doing it, as society has a chance to learn to cope without it, and the letter of the law and it's practice will actually match.

It may be less efficent, but states as small as Luxembourg survive despite not being part of a larger centralised health system. Only in cases like New York can it plausibly be argued such a system was mandated, and there Vatican-like arrangements can be made.

EDIT:
On other points that have been discussed:
-Yes, the Constitution was a compromise, but the law is the law.
-As I was going to clarify after attacks by other people I anticipated, it is a big advantage if constitution-makers can make a constitution and expect people to actually KEEP it. It means that they can think of society as a whole and determine the best structure, rather then relying on historical circumstances.
-The experiment that was the USA was a failure, as the Constitution it set up failed to be implemented.

 

[Amon Savag]

To rebut your accusation that the republicans have ruled all of the government these past 8 years, that's a COMPLETE false. The first four years, the Supreme Court remained Democrat. The past four years have been democrat owned legislative AND supreme court. NOW we're going to have ALL 3 governments owned by 1 political party, if you get your way, symphony. NO opposition at all.

 

[Disenfrancised]

President's approval is abysmal, but what about congress? The congress is elected by you and I, but their approval rating is 13% today. Back in the days when the government was more pure, it wouldn't matter if the national congress sucked, because most of our issues were taken care of at the state and local levels.

*Sigh* 'Congress' has very low approval rating and has always had low ratings, but every single congressperson polls much higher. This is because in the legisature you have three people who represent you and 532 others who don't, they represent people who may have differing needs and wants to you. Congress is not a machine for giving you want you want, it is to build a consensus and compromise out of the national will. People unfortunately are whiny and never happy with compromises.

 

[Amon Savag]

You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that every time congress meets, we lose more of our freedom?

 

[Symphony D.]

The first four years, the Supreme Court remained Democrat.

Epoch fail. During George Bush's first term, there were 7 Republican appointees, and 2 Democratic appointees. Sandra Day O'Conner and William Rehnquist, who both dropped out in the second term, were both nominated by Ronald Reagan.

The past four years have been democrat owned legislative AND supreme court.

Incorrect, the Democrats have had a plurality the past two years, with the Republicans having varying degrees of majority for the twelve before that. Meanwhile, the current Supreme Court still has 7 Republican appointees, and 2 Democratic appointees.

NOW we're going to have ALL 3 governments owned by 1 political party, if you get your way, symphony. NO opposition at all.

And the President was Republican during those eight years. So for six years there was (and still is) a Republican Supreme Court, a Republican Congress (currently out), and a Republican President (still in). I guess your knowledge of current events is about as good as your knowledge of history. Oops.

So I repeat: where the hell have you been for the last eight years with your cry for liberty or death?

 

[Amon Savag]

For some of those 8 years I've been fighting to give other people those liberties I'd die for... I digress.

Still is a republican congress? What happened to your knowledge of current events?

 

[Dachs]

I agree with Tarkin that sometimes a use of overwhelming force serves as a good example and saves one effort in the long run.

...or it turns people against you? Alderaan ended up being the Alliance's biggest recruiting booster, especially when combined with the outcome at Yavin.

Epoch fail. During George Bush's first term, there were 7 Republican appointees, and 2 Democratic appointees. Sandra Day O'Conner and William Rehnquist, who both dropped out in the second term, were both nominated by Ronald Reagan.

Well, John Paul Stevens (Ford appointee) and Souter (Bush 41 appointee) ended up voting more liberal anyway, and Sandra Day O'Connor ended up being a lot more moderate than strictly pro-Republican. But that's still 5-4 in favor of the Republicans, which is how most of the important decisions usually came down.

 

[Symphony D.]

For some of those 8 years I've been fighting to give other people those liberties I'd die for... I digress.

I appreciate your sacrifice. However what I do not understand is why you elected to support a system you now say you despise and must full-well know is not going to ever surrender power and revert to the state you deem acceptable.

Why did you fight and kill for something you consider corrupt and evil? Don't say you were fighting for the American people--Iraq was not a direct threat to them, it was a threat to the interests of the American government.

Still is a republican congress? What happened to your knowledge of current events?

Incorrect, the Democrats have had a plurality the past two years, with the Republicans having varying degrees of majority for the twelve before that.
[...]
So for six years there was (and still is) a Republican Supreme Court, a Republican Congress (currently out), and a Republican President (still in).

Reading is your friend.

...or it turns people against you? Alderaan ended up being the Alliance's biggest recruiting booster, especially when combined with the outcome at Yavin.

For one, they picked a bad target (Alderaan was publicly sort of neutral and not in active rebellion). For two, they didn't follow up on the demonstration with actual real use of force. For three, they had really crappy security and intelligence if a teenager used to shooting womp-rats, a smuggler, a Wookie, and an old Jedi could somehow penetrate the defenses of the most secure facility in the galaxy.

 

[Amon Savag]

Reading sucks.

I fought because it's our job to make sure that the rest of the world get the same chance at freedom as we have. And while our system does suck, I'd prefer it to any other atm (May change in the future, unfortunately), and we still have a chance (Though slight at best) at maybe changing government back in the future... Perhaps after the liberals actually DO take over the country, and the people see socialism in it's true color. My only fear is that, like all good governments, it'll secure itself too much for us to reverse... At any rate, all one citizen can do is watch and vote.

 

[Amon Savag]

And btw, I don't support Ron Paul. If he wasn't isolationist, I would have. I'm slightly more protectionalist than alot of the free-market types we have in the republican party. And I deffinetly favor the very limitted, constitutional, government he advocates. But he is very wrong about our place on the world-stage.

 

[a_propagandist]

Amon, how do you see it playing out? This seizure of power?

 

[Dachs]

For one, they picked a bad target (Alderaan was publicly sort of neutral and not in active rebellion).

Play The Force Unleashed and pay attention to what Bail Organa does. Alderaanian representatives were one of the three groups, in addition to Chandrilan and Corellian organizations, that signed the Treaty of Corellia that created the Rebel Alliance. That was provocation enough, I suppose.

For two, they didn't follow up on the demonstration with actual real use of force.

Well, they tried, but had implementation problems.

For three, they had really crappy security and intelligence if a teenager used to shooting womp-rats, a smuggler, a Wookie, and an old Jedi could somehow penetrate the defenses of the most secure facility in the galaxy.

They were supposed to? After Vader told Tarkin that Kenobi was onboard, and after the fight on the detention level, the stormtroopers were supposed to let them get to the ship and leave so that they could follow it to the Yavin base with that fun homing beacon.

 

[silver 2039]

Amon, how do you see it playing out? This seizure of power?

Don't encourage him he'll never stop.

 

[Symphony D.]

That was provocation enough, I suppose.

Fine. They picked a target with too much collateral damage. There is overwhelming force and just gross and ******** abuse of power.

They were supposed to? After Vader told Tarkin that Kenobi was onboard, and after the fight on the detention level, the stormtroopers were supposed to let them get to the ship and leave so that they could follow it to the Yavin base with that fun homing beacon.

Vader's awesome sense of the Force should have told him that letting the most powerful opponents he had flee with the plans to the Death Star was probably a bad idea.

 

[silver 2039]

Vader's awesome sense of the force should have told him that letting the most powerful opponents he had flee with the plans to the Death Star was probably a bad idea.

Vader's highly overrated. He's basically an agnsty teenager. Damn Episode II and III.

 

[Supermath]

We Don't Gain Anything From Negotiating With These Countries.

We Don't Lose Anything From Negotiating With These Countries.

"Americans [have] the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust their people with arms." James Madison, who would obviously disagree with Osama's stance on gun control.

I'm fairly certain if Osama bin Laden was in a position that dictated gun control, that would be the least of our worries.

Who's going to oppose the Democrats when they own all 3 branches of our government?

The last time we had a liberal Supreme Court was during the time of Earl Warren.

Also, I think you mean de-federalized. Also, we use Z's in "ize" and "ization" here in America.

This is the real problem with the US. If Webster's can fix their mistakes, all our problems will fall into place.

The European Union doesn't infringe on people's freedoms. The countries' governments that are a part of the European Union infringe on their people's freedoms. Don't make it seem like America's states were constantly at war or something. While they may not have agreed with eachother on issues, that was a good thing. It's their right to do so. If we here in Missouri don't like universal health care, we should have the right to keep our free-market system. You in whatever state you live in should have the right to adopt universal health care, should you choose to. Should my state adopt ******** policies, I would move to a different state. But when the federal government chooses to adopt crappy policies, and mandates that I abide by them, I'm stuck, or I have to move to a different country.

You ever heard about the Articles of Confederation?

 

[Dachs]

Vader's awesome sense of the Force should have told him that letting the most powerful opponents he had flee with the plans to the Death Star was probably a bad idea.

Well, ever since the incident on the Death Star with the Secret Apprentice, the main goal Vader had was killing the Rebels. This plan let him get his first good shot at the whole shebang since the 501st Legion started hunting rebels down on Naboo and Polis Massa. And, without Luke - whose presence he wasn't aware of - the Yavin base would have been annihilated and the Rebels mostly wiped out...

 

[Symphony D.]

whose presence he wasn't aware of

Force Sense rolled Nat-1? Clearly the Empire needed a Surge!