While We Wait: Part 6

[Chandrasekhar]

You would a seperate thread for the mod reviews, in fact at least when you get the information from the mod, you know what to expect.

I don't think a separate thread is really necessary. Just have mod reviews linked to right above the reviewer reviews. I mean, unless there's some seriously bad blood between the reviewers and the mods, there shouldn't be any conflict there (and since Symphony has explicitly stated that he doesn't want to be a reviewer, this shouldn't be an issue ).

Anything of a non-mod based review program I would not agree to and I know that a lot of the mods here would opt out of it also, making any such meassure null and void towards the effect you wish to do so.

Well, that should definitely be your right, of course, but it just makes sense for reviewers to be impartial. I mean, would you trust a corporation to be your only inlet of information regarding its product? Sure, they can gather up a couple of "satisfied customers" and give them free merchandise to say good things about the product, but where would we be without independent YouTube videos to show us how much ShamWow sucks?

 

[Birdjaguar]

These are all reasons as to why I feel that mods actually listing what they want from a nes, what they hope to achieve, what the type of nes they wish to protray and the like is a much better guide to a nes...
And for numerous reasons its actually better. It saves on arguments, it saves on headaches and most notably if someone after reading the overview by the mod and reading the nes decides that its not for them, they dont have to join, but it will provide information to those who do choose to join, what to ACTUALLY expect.

And how do they provide that information? In While We Wait? In the game thread itself? At the very least, discussion of the merits of various NESes should have a thread of their own, and that thread would need some sort of definite structure to it. It's not like reviewers need to be the only ones allowed to review a NES. It's just a matter of some respected members of the community having their own venue to talk about which NESes are built according to which basic design concepts.

They would post it when they post the rules or as part of a pregame thread. It need not be as elaborate as this though.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6296686&postcount=3

 

[Symphony D.]

That clear yet?

Sufficiently.

See? This is how you operate. First off, I didn't mention ANYONE. I dare you to try and prove that I ever referenced you in that post. I did not say that you only used personal attacks and avoided logic. I said when ever someone (yes- you included) resorted to inserting an attack in an argument, that was not logic.

If I may, I assumed that I was included in the subcategory of "sides." You yourself have just confirmed this in your final sentence. If I am included (as I correctly deduced), even as part of a generalized group as opposed to being singled out as an individual, am I not still referenced? How then am I not justified in responding to what I see as incomplete criticism by objecting to your generalization?

They are unrelated in the aspect that you attempted to catch me for. I was not in an argument with you. I am not bound to keeping attacks from my arguments when I am not in them. I'm going to try to streamline this for you:

I questioned your argument and in so doing entered into a discussion with you. You acknowledged this by responding, did you not? If you did not want to discuss you wouldn't have responded--there would be no point. Yet you did. You then personally attacked me. If you want to say your earlier remarks to do not apply, that's fine. That's not my concern.

Like I said, I accept this. I am an ass. I don't like it, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. If you're going to attack me, I feel the justification to do such back. Aside that, we were not having an argument. I posted and you responded. That's the difference.

I believe we have a different definition of terms here. I view any discussion wherein two people are actively holding discourse yet hold differing opinions to be an argument. That you did something hypocritical is tangential--my main concern remains another part of your argument.

No; It's not related. I said that when Sheep attempted to criticize you for something he was guilty of, I jumped on him. You attempted to use my words despite that you were guilty of such, and I responded much nicer than I did to Sheep.

My argument with you is that when I asked you why incidences of logic usage were ignored, you ignored that question with a disparaging remark. I care about the former, not the latter.

You know what? Show me how I'm wrong. Show me where you don't bring up personal flaws in an argument. Do this and I'll apologize.

I did not say I didn't. I in fact acknowledged that I did. That is not my concern. My concern is that you have characterized all arguments, including mine, as being illogical. I have gone out of my way to base my arguments in facts, reasoning, and logic, as best I can within my rhetorical context. I do not want an apology from you, I simply object to your generalization and ask why it was made.

 

[Angst]

What happened?

Rick Astley was chosen as the best rock legend in some way. I don't remember exactly what happened.

I think there's a confusion of causality here. A good NES makes happy players. We can all agree on that. However, to say that happy players "make" a good NES is meaningless. Happy players might imply a good NES, but it's the NES that makes the players happy, not the other way around.

However, when you're trying to figure out how to make a good NES, the advice "make your players happy" isn't all that useful. It's a good ultimate goal, but it leaves the intermediate steps up to the mod. Furthermore, the four styles of NESing are preferred by different segments of the population, so you can't make all of your potential players happy with one NES.

So the solution, in my opinion, is to have an unbiased, subjective rating system that spells out the qualities in each particular NES. Simulationists can restrict themselves to the super-high realism ones, while Arcaders can join freer, more abstract games. Storyists can join highly complex game worlds, while Boardgamers can opt for pure tactical action. Rating NESes as universally "good" or "bad" is obviously futile, but we can say that a NES is realistic, or flexible, or novel in its mechanics without getting all dictatorial.

These are the things that can't be measured by raw stats alone, and they work as a tool for both players and mods. A player who wants fast updates and loose rules can find such a game without having to do the research himself, and a mod who wants to make the deepest, most epic NES possible can check an archive for inspiration from old NESes that are similar to what he's aiming for. It can be fair, it can be informative, and it can be useful, and I really don't know what else you could ask for. At the very least, it's worth a try.

You are actually not really debating with me, you are keeping yourself quite close to my point (I don't know whether it is by purpose or not). This Arcading NES for instance, where the rules are flexible, it will only become renowned to post about after its death if the players enjoyed it.

This is what I mean: If a NES is extremely awesome and nobody joins or pays interest, is it really that entertaining as a NES then? Right now my own NES is suffering from players not wanting to participate or develop, even though I have included variating tactical options, it is being developed, I posted a ruleset which was to gain criticism and other stuff by the players. But they didn't post about it, I only got one reply due to the ruleset upload.

My NES isn't a great NES like the other great NESes in here, since it then only has what I would categorize as a 'satisfying' NES. The pace, length and quality of the game is appearantly not connecting perfectly with the needs of the players. Or it could be my experience/reputation as a mod that has sentenced it.

..Woa what a lot of words. My point was that my NES doesn't have fully enjoying players as in N3S fx, therefore it is not a succesful NES. N3S has a roster of amused and intruiged players, and your own has, therefore they can be talked about during the next NESer generation.

---

Actually just read through my post and realized that I agree with you. I just think that it goes both ways.

 

[Anonymous2U]

I don’t think ranking mods or NESes will improve the quality of NESes. Just because you rank someone as a poor mod doesn’t mean they will improve. Most likely they will operate as usual. What I would like is statistics on mods. NESes past 10 updates. NESes past 5 Updates, NESes officially ended, NES left in hiatus or abandoned.

These are my personal preference because as a player I enjoy consistency over quality. I hate really getting into a NES only to have left in limbo for no apparent reasons. Thinking about it more I am looking for a gauge on commitment. I would more willing to play for a lower quality MOD who commits himself to a NES. Then a high quality MOD how makes such a complicated NES that it becomes too much work and thus not fun leading to a lack of commitment to their NES.

 

[flyingchicken]

I feel much guilt over your post Anonymous2U.

Why don't you join my new NES to have your view of me as a mod rectified? I need to reforge my image.

 

[Kentharu]

@ Symphony D.
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[Anonymous2U]

@FC
Because I was better NESer back then I would not be able to live up to the quality I established in your past NES. I have 7-week-old newborn, two other kids; I lead a local Cub Scout Pack, etc, etc, etc. I barely have time for the 1 NES I am in and I cannot remember the last I had time to sit and think out an idea for stories. If I joined, I would be that evil NESer who only sends orders and never contributes to the overall plot of the NES

 

[flyingchicken]

And that would be A-ok! Personally I don't think you should think only sending orders (even the most bare-bones of such) wouldn't contribute to the plot. Orders affect the plot very much.

In fact I will now segue into a general complaint about the mode of thinking where a NES can only be a story with the so-called stories. I AM COMPLAINING RIGHT NOW IF YOU PEOPLE HAVE NOT NOTICED.

 

[Ninja Dude]

This is what I mean: If a NES is extremely awesome and nobody joins or pays interest, is it really that entertaining as a NES then? Right now my own NES is suffering from players not wanting to participate or develop, even though I have included variating tactical options, it is being developed, I posted a ruleset which was to gain criticism and other stuff by the players. But they didn't post about it, I only got one reply due to the ruleset upload.

I like your NES, I just can't really think of any way to improve it.

Also, writing an update for my own NES is going to help pass the time as I wait for others to update theirs. Funny how stuff like that works out.

 

[Yui108]

@ Symphony D.
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I can't tell if your flipping him off or saying "gotcha" with two fingers.

 

[silver 2039]

Its a Picard facepalm.

 

[jeps]

Its a Picard facepalm.

we know that. Yui's question is still unanswered. He wanted to know if he was empathizing or attacking.

 

[Symphony D.]

He wanted to know if he was empathizing or attacking.

Who cares? It simply demonstrates that the arguments about tone and presentation were and are a smoke-screen.

 

[Amon Savag]

Chan. You said noone can objectively rate their own NES, thus it can be implied that you cannot rate your own NES. Best thing since sliced bread was a flop. So? Not any more a flop than many of the NESes we see today... Check out some of my more recent works, before you start digging up fossils of my NES past.

Back then, I was too busy kickin' ass to mod. Nowdays NESes have a lifespan of 3-5 updates, unless we want to wait for months for an update at a time, which is heinous. So my roll has switched from player to mod since I've been back. Back then when NESes updated, I had to spend time whupping ass. Now I don't have the opportunity because of afforesaid lifespan of NESes. So I mod... And none of the NESes I've started since I've been back can be said to be failures.

Objectively, I did plan to go alot further with Motherhen, so it may be reopenned at a later date... But MRTOR is about to be updates as we speak. It has plenty more stories per capita than any other NES running atm, which was my goal when I made the NES... To allow newer players to experience what it was like back in the days where NESers wrote the story, and the mod just adjudicated orders and made sure noone had an unfair advantage beyond their ability to manipulate the world around them.

 

[Terrance888]

I Agree, I found that out with my Nes: it can be said we saw the light!

 

[Thlayli]

I don't have the words.

 

[sp1023]

I think I may have said pork actually... Either way, yes... Too much detail. While it's nice to have such detail in a NESes update, in order to consistantly update like this, you need to quit your job, and quit studying if you're in school, and shun all your rl friends, because at that point the only thing your time will be used up on is update.

EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED!
I haven't been able to do any hw at all...

I think that there is a balance that can be struck, especially if you plan your time accordingly.

There are many people who speak before they think, myself often included.

Well, well. Dachs has joined my club, eh?

I think if he wanted it posted in the thread he would have said so Amon . You could have just extended his ban.

I don't know why, I just find that super funny.

As Abaddon says, he does that on purpose, Frozen. He just thinks you're too dumb to see it. As he says, he thinks the masses of NESers are dumb.

Symph, about the maps. I don't want to be mean, but when everyone at school saw what you did with maps and city coordinates, they were just wondering, really. What do you do for fun?

 

[Azale]

Does anybody who NES' for a sizable portion of their time really have the right to use that thinly veiled insult?

 

[flyingchicken]

Apparently some people don't appreciate the fact that some people find doing things for a hobby, no matter how much work that may be, to be FUN and ENJOYABLE.