While We Wait: Writer's Block & Other Lame Excuses

[Azale]

Exclusive secret photo of book Obama was sworn in on:

 

[North King]

My sources gave me this picture instead:

 

[Daftpanzer]

Indeed I understand Obama's greatest achievement is combining Marxism with Nazism, Islam, Zionism, Wall Street Capitalism and Black Supremacy.

 

[Crezth]

I don't deny that they were later impositions. But your implication that they were not in keeping with the Founding Fathers' opinions on the role of religion in public life was what I was disputing.

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

It certainly seems as though the later impositions are exactly that - an imposition, and an unfaithful abridging of the 1st Amendment. Maybe our culture & society have a strong religious character - I could hardly doubt it if it were so. But the government, and all official matters of state, and the common bonds and our allegiance to that government and to the greater nation, should not in any way speak to one religion or another, even simply to refer to "God", much less display the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. Thus were the Founding Fathers very specific about not including any such mentions, except only in the vaguest possible terms, and even so in no documents by which any American would be forced to abide, i.e. the Declaration of Independence being a poetic work, and the Constitution being a prosaic one, references to the "Creator" can be forgiven as poetical flourish, and to take the same kind as "acknowledging God" for all man and the state is grasping at straws.

 

[Daftpanzer]

I was just reading about Shiveria (I find the author to be very impressive) and something struck me:

"I wonder if perhaps I meant it--and we're Gaia's mechanism for permanently ending the Ice Age--all unaware that our present disruption is part, admittedly a drastic part, of a greater homeostasis. Because, with our blindness to history, we've forgotten how drastic the Ice Ages have already been. Our beloved Earth was just as cold, dusty, rusty, dried and frayed as Shiveria, just eighteen thousand years ago--and it may soon be again."

Its an argument I've heard before - that it's kinda arrogant for us to think of ourselves as the world-shapers here. What if we're just part of a bigger system doing its thing? Getting all that trapped CO2 back into the atmosphere?

"So go ahead, drive your big new car, drown your cities! Hey, it's good for Gaia."

 

[Crezth]

What if the earth spawned us so it could have plastic?

 

[Daftpanzer]

What good is plastic to Gaia??

 

[North King]

While I really enjoy reading that site, Daft, I'd be hesitant to ascribe any sort of consciousness to Gaia. Or rather -- we ARE the consciousness of Gaia, if you want to go a mystical route. It is up to humans to shape the future of the world, and I think that's less hubris than it is a realistic assessment of our capabilities. More to the point, I feel less entitled than I do terrified that such a huge responsibility is in the hands of a few dirty apes.

 

[Shadowbound]

If Gaia is using us as its pawns, we should nuke it.

 

[m.t.cicero]

Humanity does not negotiate with terrorists.

 

[Thlayli]

It certainly seems as though the later impositions are exactly that - an imposition, and an unfaithful abridging of the 1st Amendment. Maybe our culture & society have a strong religious character - I could hardly doubt it if it were so. But the government, and all official matters of state, and the common bonds and our allegiance to that government and to the greater nation, should not in any way speak to one religion or another, even simply to refer to "God", much less display the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. Thus were the Founding Fathers very specific about not including any such mentions, except only in the vaguest possible terms, and even so in no documents by which any American would be forced to abide, i.e. the Declaration of Independence being a poetic work, and the Constitution being a prosaic one, references to the "Creator" can be forgiven as poetical flourish, and to take the same kind as "acknowledging God" for all man and the state is grasping at straws.

That separation doesn't contradict my point, I believe. And your beliefs are definitely at odds with the jurisprudence on the matter.

To quote an important Supreme Court judgment, "We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being." That they do so in no way abridges freedom of expression, nor does it compel individuals to believe.

The purpose of the passage of the Bill of Rights was not to permit a strict imposition of state atheism such that it would discourage religious practice; rather it encourages the expression of religion in general, since as I stated, religion was viewed by the Founders as an essential aspect of society which the government should support without respect to sect. This is seen in government funding of religious charities and other such cases.

Given that prayer is a common feature of our government meetings, and that the majority of religions presuppose a Supreme Being, I do not think it is excessive to consider that the government is interwoven with acknowledgment of the divine, and that to strip this from our government would be a radical new imposition of atheistic principles upon our republic.

 

[North King]

the SC case you cite was also in the anti-communist fervor of the 1950s; just sayin

 

[Thlayli]

And Roe v. Wade was in the midst of a brief period of rapidly quashed social liberalism, does that make it any less the law of the land?

 

[North King]

No, because that was on the side of justice.

 

[Thlayli]

Except for all of the millions of Americans who were murdered.

 

[North King]

Hey, it's more efficient than capital punishment!

 

[Azale]

Except for all of the millions of Americans who were murdered.

Should probably be doing something about that instead of worrying about yazidis in iraqistan

 

[Thlayli]

Should probably be doing something about that instead of worrying about yazidis in iraqistan

I vote for Republicans at every opportunity. Violence is wrong though and civil disobedience is useless.

 

[North King]

The Founding Fathers would probably disagree on both counts.

 

[m.t.cicero]

Racism update: Racism still dead.