While We Wait: Writer's Block & Other Lame Excuses

[Terrance888]

Well, take my word for it. You can get a decent impression very easily, sometimes even before "update 0".

EDIT: I realize I tend to put more dedication in my NESing and my Modding, but I put my research in before joining anything, whatsoever. These days I never join on a whim.

 

[Symphony D.]

"You can observe a lot by watching."

 

[spryllino]

Certainly you can observe a lot by watching, but if everyone did that no NES would actually get off the ground.

Terrence, I certainly won't take your word for it, seeing as what you're saying is complete nonsense. Any judgement anyone makes about a NES before at least a few updates have happened is a premature judgement. That's like judging a person by their appearance or a book by its cover, and it doesn't work.

 

[Symphony D.]

Certainly you can observe a lot by watching, but if everyone did that no NES would actually get off the ground.

This assumes that the moderator is an unknown quantity. Most aren't. It's pretty easy to tell, accurately, how they'll conduct themselves based on research or more commonly past experience. That's why some people follow certain moderators and avoid others. It's also the reason people who appear out of the blue with a game idea tend to watch as it goes nowhere. Reputation is incredibly important.

Any judgement anyone makes about a NES before at least a few updates have happened is a premature judgement.

This again is assuming there is no continuity from game to game, when there is, in the person of the moderator (and the players). What you theorize is not what actually occurs because games aren't evaluated on a one-for-one basis. Everything happens in context.

 

[Terrance888]

Well, it is quite an involved process, but Symph says the main part best.

EDIT: I look at the moderator's former threads and possible stories in other NESes. I example how the ruleset is written and the voice used. I ask others about their former and current opinions of said mod. I look in the NESer's impressions thread. I look at the players and how much effort they put in so far and my general perception of them. ect And yeah, I make my choice.

 

[North King]

And yet that assumes a moderator is something of a one-trick pony. Just because they have been successful at one thing doesn't mean they'll be successful at another, and failure doesn't always indicate sustained failure -- god knows that I messed up badly when I tried to moderate certain genres, and then other genre switches turned out great.

 

[spryllino]

Symph/Terrance: So, simply, then, I might paraphrase what you're saying as that a major cause, if not the main cause, of NESers leaving NESes is that they haven't properly discerned the mod's ineptitude beforehand. You seem to imply between you that you would like players to become more discerning in this regard.

Let us suppose a scenario where players, having become more discerning as you seem to desire, only join NESes that they are confident in: the result would be that incompetently-run NESes would collapse before the first update rather than after one or two updates. That doesn't strike me as a markedly beneficial effect.

The undiscerning NESer, in prospecting in a NES that has a high chance of being absolutely awful, is doing no-one any harm whatsoever, but is giving the NES a chance, just in case it turns out to be excellent, which is always a remote possibility. It's no-one's duty to do this sort of thing, but in as far as it has any effect on the community, it has a positive one, and certainly doesn't deserve your censure. If your players quit, you should be glad that you had them on board when you had them, and if you wish that they had given more thought to joining and consequently decided against it, you are wishing that your NES didn't have as much life and activity as it actually had.

 

[Symphony D.]

And yet that assumes a moderator is something of a one-trick pony.

Nah, it's just saying that people apply past experience to anticipate future events, which is true of... all Human endeavors ever, and also notably fallible if new, unexpected situations occur, which happens all the time. I never said it was flawless or accurate, just that it's how things work.

Symph/Terrance: So, simply, then, I might paraphrase what you're saying as that a major cause, if not the main cause, of NESers leaving NESes is that they haven't properly discerned the mod's ineptitude beforehand. You seem to imply between you that you would like players to become more discerning in this regard.

No. As I said initially, most people don't know what they're getting into or what they want. For example, I'm currently only in SysNES2. I have watched a good half a dozen people express interest in that game with "oh wow I like space

" only to somehow totally ignore its technical depth and then later go "oh god numbers and spreadsheets where did all this stuff come from

" despite ample evidence available in an instant that that was precisely what laid in store for them. Circling back around for a moment, I'm only in SysNES2 because (today) I have narrow tastes. I like space but I'm not in say, GalaxyNES, because a simple glance reveals it to be soft sci-fi space opera that I wouldn't be very interested in. It would be quite silly of me to join it without doing any research, "suddenly" realize it wasn't my cup of tea despite a vast abundance of evidence to that effect in the first place, and then quit. Instead I actually paid attention and never joined to begin with.

I think most players are actually extremely tolerant of moderator incompetence, and I wouldn't paint that as the primary cause. I think most players simply don't know what they want or don't care to find out what they're joining.

 

[North King]

Nah, it's just saying that people apply past experience to anticipate future events, which is true of... all Human endeavors ever, and also notably fallible if new, unexpected situations occur, which happens all the time. I never said it was flawless or accurate, just that it's how things work.

Whelp, I was pointing out the fallibility of it, so I guess we're all good to go.

 

[Terrance888]

Symph/Terrance: So, simply, then, I might paraphrase what you're saying as that a major cause, if not the main cause, of NESers leaving NESes is that they haven't properly discerned the mod's ineptitude beforehand. You seem to imply between you that you would like players to become more discerning in this regard.

As for me, no. I don't know what is the main cause of NESers to leave NESes. Is it real life? Is it the Mod? The Players? The events? I don't know. However, this isn't what is bothering me. What is bothering me is when a player leaves because of time constraints, then complain that they have too much time and want to play in a new IOT the next day.

As for other players, I don't really care what they do. I know what I do and it works for me.

Let us suppose a scenario where players, having become more discerning as you seem to desire, only join NESes that they are confident in: the result would be that incompetently-run NESes would collapse before the first update rather than after one or two updates. That doesn't strike me as a markedly beneficial effect.

The undiscerning NESer, in prospecting in a NES that has a high chance of being absolutely awful, is doing no-one any harm whatsoever, but is giving the NES a chance, just in case it turns out to be excellent, which is always a remote possibility. It's no-one's duty to do this sort of thing, but in as far as it has any effect on the community, it has a positive one, and certainly doesn't deserve your censure. If your players quit, you should be glad that you had them on board when you had them.

Being discerning doesn't mean not giving prospective NESes chances. It means choosing which ones to give chances too, which ones to not, and which ones you are certain you will enjoy. Namely, it means that the NESer is a proactive human being making informed choices and chances, rather than a chip off the community joining every/every other/the newest/the largest/the most advertised NES whenever they ahve time. Indeed, I can say that everyone has some sort of bias and is a discerning NESer, if not to my extent.

I have given questionable NESes chances before, and out of the... countless times I did it, two of them paid off. Those two made all of them worth it. Does this mean I should join every questionable NES? No, because it will lower my quality as a player. Does this mean that every questionable NES is worth my attention equally? No, because I still choose based on genre, posting style and quality, even the way the poster organizes his or her OP. Does it mean that I reject all questionable NESes? No, because as I've said, I am merely a proactive being who does his research and makes choices. I don't expect anyone else to do the extent that I do, but I expect that everyone thinks a bit before plunging. A NES is a commitment. Sure, it is a fun diversion and a world-building world or whatever definition. But for this sake it is a commitment. It isn't the most important one, but it is one which one must take in consideration when joining, and which one should take in consideration when leaving.

And the last point is so crucial I will restate it. A NES is a commitment- which one should take in consideration when leaving. I don't need to know details about your real life escapades or issues, or whatever whatsoever. However, if it is the NES itself and Real Life has nothing to do with it, then I WANT to know about it. I don't expect you to tell me, but it hurts when you quit due to lack of time, complain about the extra time you have, then join 2 other NESes. If you did tell me, not only does it not hurt you, it helps me.

I do respect every one of my Player's time, even if they don't seem to invest as much as they "should", or send orders in late after a 3 Month Hiatus over which I offered constant progress reports on my RL issues heading back towards moderation, and even if they managed to punch each and every one of my pet peeves. In the end, they made a commitment to play, and I made a commitment to moderate. I respect the time and effort they put in, they respect mine. If they do leave, I would sincerely hope they respect my effort enough to inform me if I made a heinous judgement or if it is simply the premise or if it is truly real life. But even if they offer no reason, I appreciate the time they offer and hope they return some day. Giving false reasons to break the commitment to my NES and then build new ones simply hurts.

tl;dr. Being discerning is being human, and the only difference is in degree. It is true NESers entered into NESes they are not interested in; everyone is human and everyone makes mistakes. Even with my method I made that mistake before. In the end, it is a choice to engage in a commitment or not. And in the end, that is not the question here. Based on my post, I am talking about people breaking commitments with phony reasoning to make other ones which hurts me in many ways, and I am asking that if it is possible that they be considerate and inform me of the true reason they quit.

 

[spryllino]

No. As I said initially, most people don't know what they're getting into or what they want. For example, I'm currently only in SysNES2. I have watched a good half a dozen people express interest in that game with "oh wow I like space

" only to somehow totally ignore its technical depth and then later go "oh god numbers and spreadsheets where did all this stuff come from

" despite ample evidence available in an instant that that was precisely what laid in store for them. Circling back around for a moment, I'm only in SysNES2 because (today) I have narrow tastes. I like space but I'm not in say, GalaxyNES, because a simple glance reveals it to be soft sci-fi space opera that I wouldn't be very interested in. It would be quite silly of me to join it without doing any research, "suddenly" realize it wasn't my cup of tea despite a vast abundance of evidence to that effect in the first place, and then quit. Instead I actually paid attention and never joined to begin with.

I think most players are actually extremely tolerant of moderator incompetence, and I wouldn't paint that as the primary cause. I think most players simply don't know what they want or don't care to find out what they're joining.

That's all true; it all strikes me as a generally perfectly good state of affairs. You like to make sure that the NESes you join are the sort you like before you join them, whereas some other people are less careful. I don't see any real problem with either attitude. I'm not sure whether you or Terrance is actually trying to demonstrate an actual problem with the less careful attitude, but unless you do, Terrance's complaints about players leaving without a full and detailed explanation will continue to strike me as rather silly.

 

[Terrance888]

It does seem rather silly because you don't understand what I am "asking" for.

I am not asking for detail.

I am not asking for personal information.

I am not asking for anything whatsoever.

I said that I am annoyed at people using the false pretense of "RL" to quit NESes and then join other commitments, which clearly show they have no RL problem whatsoever. I stated it makes me feel betrayed and hurt. [edit]I made this point clear in further, non-named, examples.[/edit]

I said that I'd prefer nothing over a false pretense.

I said that I'd prefer something real over a false pretense.

I said that I accept RL as a real excuse, because in many cases it is.

EDIT: The whole rabbit hole of discerning players was begun by this post, an analysis of your post which you accepted.

 

[Symphony D.]

I don't see any real problem with either attitude.

The latter is a waste of everyone's time and effort in which retreat is often covered by lies, as Terrance describes. It benefits no one in any capacity.

 

[spryllino]

Terrance:

Firstly, I was replying primarily to Symph in my last post, and crossposted with you.

In reply to your first post, you can't reasonably hold anyone to any sort of commitment to a NES. Certainly it's jolly good if people do feel that sort of commitment, but I think NESers who drop in and out, prospect in new NESes, add a bit to a NES and then vanish again into the aether, are a good thing too. Everyone who participates here is doing it out of their own free will, and if they don't feel welcome to do it in the fashion that they want to, then just as likely they won't bother at all as participate in the committed fashion you desire.

In reply to your second post, if you aren't asking for anything whatsoever, what on earth did you mean when you said, "If you need to Quit, I really want to know WHY." That strikes me as asking for something, i.e. an explanation of a player's motivation for quitting. You seem to be shifting your position, or you were exaggerating to start with; I'm not sure which.

Your current line of thought seems to be as follows: "I said that I am annoyed at people using the false pretense of "RL" to quit NESes and then join other commitments, which clearly show they have no RL problem whatsoever. I stated it makes me feel betrayed and hurt." This is irrational on two counts.

Firstly, as I said before and you failed to discuss, are you saying that these players' commitment to the NES in question up to their departure was so worthless that you would rather they had thought more about joining and decided not to join your NES in the first place? If that isn't what you're saying, you are absolutely unjustified in feeling betrayed and hurt, and instead you ought to feel thankful to your departing players. I hypothesise that without these players, your NES might not have got as far, and I also suggest that - if what I am saying is true - this refutes Symph's statement in his last post above this one.

Secondly, your line of thought is antagonistic and sanctimonious. Moaning about how your players ought to be truthful and honourable OOC people is going to get you absolutely nowhere, and if anything is just likely to annoy the players that want to leave and make sure they don't come back (if they even care, which they probably don't). If you say things like, "Jeez Louise, if you tell me I can change it and you might rejoin. If it really is a Real Life problem, then why did you cut mine over other things- that would be a good reason too." then you are liable to annoy people, and you are shooting yourself and your NES in the foot.

Symph: I don't think they waste other people's time, and seeing as we are loosely discussing the specific case of Terrance's players that partly depends on what he has to say about whether they added or detracted to his NES overall. If they waste their own time that doesn't strike me as a substantial evil in itself as far as anyone except themselves is concerned. Would you say there is any other disadvantage brought about by the presence of such players, even if I conceded that their approach had no positive advantages?

 

[Terrance888]

Firstly

Ok.

In reply to your first post,

Even something that is done with free will and enjoyment is still a commitment. Take a DnD game. It is a game. It is still a commitment whether you are the DM or a player. Or how about a group of friends meeting after school once a week. It is fun, but it is still a commitment. No matter how weak it is, people build expectations, things gain connections... it is a commitment. How about going to church. Or school. Or family night out. Or even looser- schedueled chat parties, other things... I still consider them commitments personally, and although I don't expect everyone to, I expect them to respect the fact that they are expected to be where they say they are going to be. The definition I would use is more "attitude" over "obligation".

Secondly, you talk about players appearing and disappearing. That is not my problem.

My problem is with the player who leaves because he or she is oh so busy with real life they must quit all forum activities, then opens an IOT the next day. My problem is with the player who quits because they can't find any time for anything, then joins a new NES that very afternoon. My problem is with the player who has a time crunch because of exams or something due in a month, then starts posting stories every day in every other NES they didn't quit and starting a new Story and Tales thread and pour dozens of hours in each of the four weeks they are apparently "frantically studying."

In reply to your second post,

I am partially exaggerating because it was just a pet peeve ignited recently while prancing about the forum with Christmas good cheer and getting it ruined, as well as other RL issues right before I decided to post.

Your current line of thought

That is correct.

Firstly,

Nope. I would rather they think more of me than something to lie to and discard so they can make other commitments.

Secondly

Which is why I spoilered it. I admit that they are the two qualities you have stated and this makes it indeed, "illogical." How logical a frustrated and betrayed adolescent can be, I am not sure. I'm not sure I am even making sense here, and so far it seems I'm not.

Anyway, so what if I just shot my NES in the foot. If that is what pointing out what something that has wounded me inside in hopes of at least some future consideration, it is worth it. I will continue updating regardless, even if nearly everyone quits because. I am not selfish enough to think that "oh no I am risking my NES" to stop. And don't talk about how this affects my players, because as you've said, it is their free will and if they want to quit, they can quit for whatever or no reason whatsoever.

I just wish that reasons, when given, are truthful to the extent that they are offered.

And in the end, that is all I want from this.

 

[spryllino]

My problem is with the player who leaves because he or she is oh so busy with real life they must quit all forum activities, then opens an IOT the next day. My problem is with the player who quits because they can't find any time for anything, then joins a new NES that very afternoon. My problem is with the player who has a time crunch because of exams or something due in a month, then starts posting stories every day in every other NES they didn't quit.

Yes, but... why do you want to unleash your animosity on these people? Even if they deserve it, does it help anyone in any way for you to rant about them? Wouldn't you all be happier if you just let go of your departing players? I'm not sure what purpose your complaints possibly serve if you are merely making a stand on the behalf of abstract truth, and I'm sure that the feelings of betrayal and hurt that you inflict upon yourself in the process of making such a stand outdo the benefits that you accrue for abstract truth in the process.

 

[Terrance888]

First, I have to say it wasn't in any way shape or form a rational decision to post. With that said and done, here are some reasons.

1) I have an intrinsically negative view of the world. Therefore, I am personally and socially always striving to better myself and the people around me, although usually I am not as forward as I was here.

2) I trust the community. I have been here since I was very young, and I feel that the people here can be trusted in a limited manner some of my personal feelings, especially towards the hobby we all share.

3) I just had a very bad time right after a very good time. Waking up was great. Spending time with family all morning was great. Then I had a horrible lunch. Then I got a talking to. I saw people who "betrayed" me on the internet. Other real life things... do you want to know? They are private ah whatever. I trust you guys. I was frustrated with certain parts of my NES. I got annoyed at how a youtube video's formatting changed (auto-repeat was taken off). I bit my tongue while eating hot noodles. I found a stinkbug in my pocket. I scored horribly on my practice SAT. I got emotionally twisted. I got depressed by a depressing you tube video. I stubbed my toe, then smashed my face on my desk when I tried to comfort it. I think I chipped my teeth and scratched my new glasses. And then more private stuff even I won't share.



Now, it helps me because it helped me clarify my own personal views on the issue. I dunno about anyone else, but if even a single player decided to give no excuse instead of lie, that is a plus in my book. I actually got an "apology" PM from one of the players, which lifted my heart immensely. We discussed things and I got new ideas on how to improve my NES.

Possibly. Who knows? I am not that kind of person. So open question mods; would you be happier if you let departed players from your NESes go? I dunno the extent, but to the extent so that their lies about why they left doesn't impact you? Personally, I take pride (in the community?) in seeing how former (and current!) players grew and developed. And that pride is one thing broken recently.

Well, posting it and sharing it makes me feel better by itself. Discussing it and realizing/refining my personal self and position on the issue makes me feel gratifying. And finally, however abstract that truth is, even if I save one person from experiencing that feeling one time in exchange for my personal eternal torment, I would f___ing take it. Take this however you will.

 

[Nylan]

It doesn't take rocket science to figure out why a mod might desire to know why people actually quit their NESes, particularly when there is dishonesty involved.

Nor is anyone here forcing players to sign a contract or tying something like that in to "quitting protocol".

Let's keep things in perspective, here.

 

[Terrance888]

Of course Nylan.

I was just responding to Spry's questions and comments so that even if he disagrees with me in the end, he can emphasize or at least understand where I am coming from and what I actually meant.

 

[Symphony D.]

Would you say there is any other disadvantage brought about by the presence of such players, even if I conceded that their approach had no positive advantages?

I think our fundamental difference in viewpoint is that it's my opinion that something is not always better than nothing. A polity with a rapidly rotating coterie of players can (and often does) experience something of policy schizophrenia if they're active, or continued delays in action as each new player tries to adjust to the context around them if they try to be cautious. Essentially, the minor contributions of each player sum up to nothing, or indeed less than nothing, due to the opportunity costs sunk into the biggest asset of all: time. If your option on the one hand is no progress, and on the other is no progress or backwards progress, the former is preferable for future players.The polity either doesn't advance, or actually retrogresses, putting it further behind for a player who will actually stay, which disincentivizes them from picking it...

They're wasting their time by sticking with something they don't want to keep, they're wasting the mod's time by requiring guidance and processing for updates, they're wasting their fellow players' time on pointless and impermanent diplomacy and interactions, and they're wasting future players' time by not improving a situation or actively making it worse. None of those is positive. Even "banking" is not enough to remedy that fact, since game time is the most precious resource of all. The best you can say of it is that it organically represents the fact that "sometimes there will be losers." I prefer to see that arise from bad play or bad luck rather than a revolving door, personally.