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Who else agrees that Civ 5 has been dumbed down?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by KingYosef, Sep 23, 2010.

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Who else agrees that Civ 5 has been dumbed down?

  1. Yes

    853 vote(s)
    50.7%
  2. No

    677 vote(s)
    40.2%
  3. Undecided

    152 vote(s)
    9.0%
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  1. Brawndo

    Brawndo Warlord

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    This is one my biggest gripes. The first 1/3 of the game is insanely boring compared to Civ 4, unless I'm at war
     
  2. Stiefel

    Stiefel Chieftain

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    The same goes for Civ 4. You can't be wasting your hammers making every building available. Libraries can be skipped in cities specialized in production. A barracks can be skipped in cities specialized in commerce. Walls can be skipped in cities that are too far inland to worry about attack. Why waste your turns building communication towers when you can build parts for the space race?

    In Civ 4 terms, the population is needed to work the cottages, the buildings are needed to boost research provided by commerce, and the cottages provide the commerce necessary for research.
     
  3. EdCase

    EdCase Defender of the Faithless

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    Different ? most certainly.

    Dumber ? No, not all all. Different decision process at higher levels. More tightly focused warfare. Greater complexity in governmental style.
    You actually get a better feel of "Guns or Butter" than in any previous incarnation.

    I have high hopes that by the time it has matured as Civ IV did over 5 years it will be deserving of best Civ to date title. It is off to a good start.......

    YMMV of course.
     
  4. gram123

    gram123 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
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    Just done playing my first Civ 5 games. Started on Prince since i expected to run into some newbie mistake so thought playing equal with the AI seemed fair. However even though i was experimenting and was way behind in score to most civs I got into a 4 against 1 war with several city states complaining about me being villain and never ever any of them was even near conquering a single city - actually i won by domination 1500 years after they declared war. And I still doesn’t know how many AI forces it will take to conquer just one of my city left defend less…

    Obviously the AI is stupid to a degree never seen since the 80's pacman, so that gotta count against the game. Few things is also a welcome addition or upgrade to the game, but seems there are many things letting us down with this games comparing to the earlier civs.


    The positive things first

    I like the :gold: separation of money and research. Now that i have seen them separated i don’t miss the slider. Before I just didn't think there was any other way - so thump up to developers for creativity on that one.

    I like the :) nationwide happiness - at least to some degree. It nice to have this cap on expanding and growth - how ever it’s far too easy to beat. I conquered the whole world just by building a few coluseums, and if happiness fell to low just raze the next city or two I conquered or speed bought a coluseum. So Nationwide happiness is fine - but why did we have to cut out health? Why can’t there be macro happiness and micro health or why don’t we have both nationwide and local happiness, seems rather obscure that the hole empire is mad, I speed build two coluseums in the outer realms of the empire and everything is nice again.

    Hex'es :traderoute: - Yep they are nice - graphic goes wonderful with them - and they work well with one unit per tile. But on the other side - didn’t really hate the squares and I really don’t think they are such a big step forward seems more like the necessarily steps that just had to come…

    One unit per tile :strength:- Well so far I like it - might bore me sometime especially as long as the AI is so dumb. So for as long as the AI aren’t fixed we will have to play mods removing the cap...

    Policies - I like them, nice to have something where you can’t get it all it actually add complexity to the game which is otherwise completely missing in this game - and also I like the new way to win cultural victory - but why does this eliminate civics. Civics were great why can’t we have both? I miss caste system and slavery....!

    I like the possibility to but tiles for the city. :gold: And I like a couple of things we have already seen in the mods for civ 4 - great generals and ranged bombardment for example are great.

    ohh and finally i LOVE getting rid of transport ships!


    Well downside

    Espionage :espionage:- One of the common - I simply don’t get how it can be a good argument that it weren’t used a lot - I used it sometimes! I used it several times for delaying cultural victory for the AI. Also quiet handy if you have strong economy and not going for research victory – and especially it became nice with the expanded espionage from mods – with assassination - and it seems fair that you only get intel of your enemies if you do a effort for it.

    I HATE the game speeds:move: - i got to medieval age before I got two units and a building! I take same time to research 3 techs as to build a swordsmen! And same time to build the Forgotten City as to build courthouse WTF!

    Another common, Religions :religion:- why did they have to go? Yeah it :):):):)ed up diplo sometimes - but well actually it was diplomatic - now when they removed religions we have nothing - now we just have conquest....

    Which reminds me of city states - and i simply don’t get the praise of those! They are at best worth a additions to a custom mod they are not even good enouth to justify a single mod – should be a mod component for modpacks - and actually I would turn them of it it was posible in the modpacks who put them there. They are simple annoying and doesn’t give anything to the game - well maybe they add so that the UN victory will be easier - if we ever get so far in the tech tree without having conquested everyone before....

    Why cant i have two workers on the same tile ?
    Why cant i have two civilians on the same tile ?
    why doesn’t great generals get promotions? and why cant I have two of them in the same tile?

    Why are the no cottage that can grow - why did they remove this feature instead of adding a second line for mines ? Ohh forgot I like that you can repeair a pillage tile – which eliminate the problem mentioned in a earlier post about post-war set backs…

    Why can’t I culture battle anymore? Correct me if I’m wrong, but the first one to get a tile has it until the city is conquered? Another reason why anything but conquest/domination is the only way in civ 5. Where is culture flip?

    I hate the new wonders - bonuses seems absurdly small - and wonders incredible cheap - give me back GL for witch I would pulp two GS and speed build with a GE- ohh and give me back speed build with GE...

    Whats up with all the complaining about the money :commerce: - I never ever had money problems in the game I played - might have been the difficulty level - but hey I played Prince - should at least have got me wondering where I put roads and what buildings I bought - and yes I say bought not build. Because at least 3/4 buildings I got I bought with gold not hammers - same goes for units - seems strange to use 30 turns building a Swordmen i just teched to, when I will have tech for long swordsmen in 5 turns and gunpowder in 10 - and I can build a wonder in same amount of turns....

    I miss vassal state....
    I miss tech trading...
    I miss map trading....
    I miss diplomacy....

    ohh i don’t miss inflation - and then again I actually miss it somehow or at least something that cap my growth. I simply can’t see why I shouldn't build 20 settlers more... except i can get 15 wonders for the same price.... I go for Egypt buy 15 wonders and conquer 20 cities - for there seems to be no penalty for having a giant empire... and since they removed inflation I can speed buy anything cuz there will be no penalty and I got a sh!tload of money anyways - which I btw cant transfer into science. Reminds me of research agreement. When I got it first I liked getting philosophy or whatever tech for 150gold or something together with Bismark - but later it seemed to me pretty useless as I would come to experience that a situation where I would not sign a research agreement is unthinkable since its now the only way to convince gc's to science - and as you know I got a sh!tload of money....
    Ohh andIi thought I would never hear myself saying this - but no matter how much I hated it in civ 4 I miss mentaince cost due to distance from palace and number of cities - because I’m desperately missing something to cap my growth!

    Ohh and excuse my spelling - English is not my first language ;)
     
  5. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    We played three civs before they added religion. Don't see why the removal of an ultimately superficial feature cripples the game.
     
  6. kuukkeli

    kuukkeli King

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    This is meant for you and all other who like to remind about this: 1/3 of voters is really a significant number. With only 54% saying the game hasn't been dumbed down it should be quite obvious that something is wrong. Maybe the initial disappointment makes some people to exaggerate the problems but the numbers really are saying that on some level the problem is real.

    And I voted yes primarily due to aforementioned reason that compared to Civ4 there is significantly less to do during the game. For me that's the clearest indication and also something that can't be explained by bugs as it's clearly a design decision.
     
  7. DoubleAG

    DoubleAG Chieftain

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    Smartest quote on this thread! I really don't understand all this Civ 4 worship. Why is everyone expecting a game just released to be as polished as a game that's been out for over five years? And please play the game for a decent amount of time before you start bashing it. I've seen people complain about not being able to manage what tiles your citizens worked or how long does a worker take to finish an improvement SMH. If people would actually play the game instead of whining here they would find that alot of the supposed depth that they thought was missing was actually there the whole time.

    And if you still can't find that depth, give the game some time! If you love the series as much as you say then you would stick around and give the game a chance to grow before you abandon it. The civ 4 that we have today was created after years of patches, expansions, and constructive criticism from the fans. Sure there are some basic features from the expansion packs that could have been added to civ 5 but this is the beginning of a new vision for civilization. Let that vision come to fruition before you condemn it.
     
  8. Malecite

    Malecite Chieftain

    Joined:
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    After playing through round 4 I came to the same conclusion as 2 of my friends who have owned the game since launch: you wage war and you win, you dont wage war and you sit there bored as you lose.

    All the other game mechanics are really just there to give you something to do between invading your neighbors. If you looks closely you have 0 control over anything except what your military units are doing. Techs all lead to the same thing, and cant really be skipped. Cities are all essentially cookie cutter carbon copies of one another, and there are hardly any penalties for eternal warfare. They even removed the strategic value of protecting cottages to allow them time to mature. No governments, no real civics, no religion, and no unhealthiness. So yea I would consider it to be EXTREMELY dummed down.
     
  9. KingYosef

    KingYosef Warlord

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    Let's not forget no espionage. This was a great feature to peak into the mind of your enemy and figure out how you wanted to mount your offensive, or defensive. This is yet ANOTHER feature that should have stayed and been improved upon.
     
  10. KingYosef

    KingYosef Warlord

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    This is a fair analysis. I agree in that where is all the fun stuff that made the game interesting in the moment?
     
  11. JohnRM

    JohnRM Don't make me destroy you

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    Some things are and some are not. Overall, I don't think the game is "dumbed down" and even if it were, I don't think that it was the intention of the developers to do so.
     
  12. craig123

    craig123 Prince

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    I have to say that a lot of the complaints in this thread can be summarised as either:

    1. They removed by favourite feature from Civ4 (or one of its expansion packs) and that makes me sad. So I'll ignore all the things that have been added or improved and just say the game is :):):):).

    2. The strategies I used in Civ4, which I have honed over the past five years, no longer work. Rather than trying to learn this new game, I'll just say it's dumbed down.

    3. After playing Civ4 (BtS) for so long, I realise it's a very deep, complex game. After playing Civ5 for 10 hours, I (surprisingly :rolleyes:) don't yet see the same level of complexity. Therefore it is dumbed down.

    4. I am annoyed that the game crashes, or that there are graphical glitches, or that my five-year-old computer doesn't meet the minimum specs. Rather than accepting that I need a new PC or waiting for a patch, I will join in with the complaints on this forum.

    5. I have issues with Firaxis/2K over some of their decisions - such as Steam - and/or I am still paranoid after Civ:Rev that all future Civ games will be made for consoles. Therefore I will vent my anger by criticising everything that Firaxis does, regardless of how good it might be. Hopefully I will drive them out of business in order to teach them a lesson, or they will get so fed up trying to please so-called Civ fans they will stop making PC games and just focus on console and Facebook games. This will prove that I was right all along and will allow me to say "I told you so" to everyone who disagreed with me.

    6. The game is not Civ4. Civ4 was perfect. Things are different in Civ5. Rather than continuing to enjoy Civ4, I must disparage Civ5 and the people who like it.

    I should point out that many people have made reasonable and balanced arguments, listing what they like and dislike about the game. The list above was meant only for those who seem to be blinded by hatred. I am not claiming that Civ5 is perfect: there are some things I might have done differently and I realise it still needs a few patches. But there is a lot that is good about the game and I'm sure certain things will grow on me. Remember that Civ4 needed to be patched and rebalanced after release; also at the time I'm sure there would have been people complaining that Civ3 was better. Can we stop the hatred and try to be a little more rational and reasonable in our arguments?

    For those of you still willing to give the game a chance, I would recommend reading Lemmy's excellent and humorous walkthrough and watching Quill's Let's Play Civ5 YouTube videos; maybe you will see the game in a different light.
     
  13. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Good summary. Unfortunately it is still going to be a few weeks before we can discuss Civ5 and not why people are wrong.
     
  14. Eejit

    Eejit Chieftain

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    No, it's been dumbed up.

    They removed most of the shallowest options and added greater strategic depth to the core mechanics.

    Which sounds like an excellent platform to build upon imo.
     
  15. Schuesseled

    Schuesseled Deity

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    ^ Agreed, simpler? Yes, Worse? No
     
  16. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I don't necessarily agree with the "dumbed down" conclusion, but at least in the game and a half I've played already I found the same general thing as you as far as war goes. The game I tried to play relatively peacefully didn't work out at all. Now, I don't really miss cottages, civIV cities were all relatively all alike too (how different can they be); but all of the building, placement, etc., seems to really take a back seat to the war.
     
  17. Nekator

    Nekator Master of Desaster

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    and no replay at the end of the game...

    i fully agree.. it´s really a shame how they ruined this great series, just for the kicks of their new "casual" target group... :mad:
     
  18. Ayt

    Ayt Warlord

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    Apparently you don't realize that people often quit well before the game is officially over because it would be boring to complete the game. I rarely ever officially finish a game, but that doesn't mean I haven't beaten it. Finishing out games you've already won is mindless tedium.
     
  19. Janster

    Janster Chieftain

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    Civ 5 is as complex, if not more than Civ 4, I don't miss the stupid religion effects from Civ 4, and I certainly don't miss spies and corp stuff.
    Removal of tech trade is also a great leap forward, it never felt natural.

    I think those who voted for dumber, must have stared themselves blind at the new happyness system, not understand what it actually means.

    Take a GOOD look at Civ 5 again, you might be suprised what it's got in store for you.
     
  20. ruskyandrei

    ruskyandrei Warlord

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    Yes, numbers don't lie, and more than 1 in 2 players disagree with you.
     
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