Who is working on HOF attempts w/o threads?

[Dianthus]

On a related note, I would think playing huge maps on PTW would result in a faster finish compared to Conquests, since Conquests changed its requirements.

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure the increase in culture required would really make all that much difference. The reason being that the culture accumulation isn't linear. It starts off very slowly with most of the culture being gained in the last 40-50 turns.

My recent Standard map attempt ended up with around 2900 cpt, and I would expect that rate to be higher on a huge map due to higher number of cities within the dom limit. At that rate (2900cpt) the extra 40,000 culture (I think that's right) required for a Huge map in C3C would only take another 13.8 turns. So, can new C3C features make up for those 13.8 turns?

It wouldn't surprise me if they could. I'm thinking especially of Civil Engineers, though Philosophy's free tech and improved Communism are worth bearing in mind too. I'm also wondering if the Aggricultural trait might be better than either Religious/Scientific as fast expansion seems to be pretty important, in which case that would be another reason to use C3C.

I'll leave it to someone else to test this out in the short term though, my next maps are going to be Tiny/Small, and those have GOT to be quicker on C3C .

 

[TimBentley]

You may be right. Regardless, I would think if someone could only play PTW, huge maps would be the best chance to beat the C3C finish date.

 

[Dianthus]

You may be right. Regardless, I would think if someone could only play PTW, huge maps would be the best chance to beat the C3C finish date.

True. For the moment there isn't much competition for 100K between PTW/C3C though, there are only 11 entries total across all difficulties/mapsizes!

I'm also wondering if it might be worth trying PTW for 20K. With good use of leader farming it should be possible to get far more MGLs than it's possible to get SGLs in C3C.

 

[EMan]

True. For the moment there isn't much competition for 100K between PTW/C3C though, there are only 11 entries total across all difficulties/mapsizes!

....Yeah, no kidding, since there are 400 possible slots!....Where's the clones of boogaboo & LulThyme?

Interesting analysis, Dianthus.....we need an "Einstein-type" who could figure out the best strategy!......I guess the "Trial & Error" approach makes the game more fun, though!?

The MGL approach would be more scientific than the SGL one.......I see in LulThyme's FANTASTIC #1 20K/Tiny/Chieftain game, he not only had a cow/ivory/fresh & sea water at the Capital, BUT he got an SGL at the first Tech discovery!!........Somebody from above was giving him "The Nod" on that game!

 

[Dianthus]

I guess the "Trial & Error" approach makes the game more fun, though!?

Maybe. I'd rather do a mixture of both analyzing/trialling. Bear in mind that I'm a sad geek mathematician/programmer that finds analyzing fun!

Hey, I've just had an idea, maybe we can have a new table ranked by "fun" .

 

[LulThyme]

I'm also wondering if it might be worth trying PTW for 20K. With good use of leader farming it should be possible to get far more MGLs than it's possible to get SGLs in C3C.

For low level of difficulty, AIs really have trouble being unit farms

I totally agree though.
I chose C3C by principle, being the most recent version, but I'm pretty sure at least for Demigod up, someone could tinker a good MGL strategy and beat my dates.

 

[LulThyme]

The MGL approach would be more scientific than the SGL one.......I see in LulThyme's FANTASTIC #1 20K/Tiny/Chieftain game, he not only had a cow/ivory/fresh & sea water at the Capital, BUT he got an SGL at the first Tech discovery!!........Somebody from above was giving him "The Nod" on that game!

Well of course somebody above has to help for these games, but actually for all my games, fresh water+coast+cow + ivory near and SGL on first tech is actually a requirement to actually TRY that game...
If I get say 2 cows, and another SGL during the Ancient Age, then its probably a keeper


Somebody doing MGL would still need luck
2 early MGL or not will win or lose the game (in terms of an early date)
SGL farming is very scientific in the sense that you need to maximise science research to maximise opportunity (which is not always trivial at higher diff), just like MGL farming maximise elite wins to maximise opportunity.
In both cases you scientifically maximise opportunity, and then sacrifice your soul to the RNG.

 

[EMan]

@LulThyme: I don't want you to get the impression that I thought your 20K games were lucky......you've obviously played them with great skill (AND, a lot of work RESTARTING) to get those end-dates ...........I know first-hand!.....from all my 3rd places on the 20K Lists!

Congratulations are definitely in order!

 

[punkbass2000]

Indeed, getting a MGL as early as 3000BC could be a challenge. Whether or not you could tip the balance with more MGLs later than you could ever hope for SGLs is a difficult question, however.

 

[LulThyme]

Indeed, getting a MGL as early as 3000BC could be a challenge. Whether or not you could tip the balance with more MGLs later than you could ever hope for SGLs is a difficult question, however.

Exactly my point.
Very early SGL would have the advantage but who knows later on?
I think the main thing is diff level.
At high diff, its easier to get MGL then SGL, but you still need to keep a good tech pace to get access to wonders.
I dont know.
It actually took me a long time (and help, from punkbass among others) to figure out a pretty good strategy with SGLs, so Im not sure I even want to try thinking about MGLs



sorry for the slight threadjack, all btw.

Im glad I started doing HoF runs, they really put back a lot of fun in this game for me.
20K specially I find fun because basically your whole empire exists for only one purpose.
If I ever get bored with those, I think I may try something similar like early spaceship or diplo.

 

[superslug]

I chose C3C by principle, being the most recent version, but I'm pretty sure at least for Demigod up, someone could tinker a good MGL strategy and beat my dates.

MGL's are definitely one way one could go. For a few recent weekends I was trying to apply a Boogaboo type start where I beat the AI down to one city, then apply a milker type quarantine to it and choose the best spot for a 20k city. The rest of the theoretical game would have been devoted to burning through the techs and building all the wonders possible in that city.

I may go back to that at some point, but for now I'm running Mapfinder for a new huge map.

 

[MOTH]

I've done a bunch of false starts for my Tiny Warlord 100K Iroquios. Mostly because I set Mapfinder wrong and was getting random competitors.

The one I started last night is very promising. The start showed 2 Cows, and a lux. After moving 1 tile and settling I now had 2 Cows and Wheat.

The important thing was Goodie Hut popping. I got a settler right away and settled 3 North of my initial city (in range of 1 shared cow and a flood plain).

Initial builds was a scout, but changed to initial granary once I got the 2nd city, and then a temple, then mostly running as a 4 turn pump. 2nd city built a scout, temple, and is building the Pyramids now.

I found France right away. India is very far away and took a long time to find them.

My future goals:
I am nearly at Republic and will then build a bunch of mounted warriors and eliminate France before they ever meet India. If I get a MGL then I will save to rush the FP someplace far from Salamanca.

 

[LulThyme]

MGL's are definitely one way one could go. For a few recent weekends I was trying to apply a Boogaboo type start where I beat the AI down to one city, then apply a milker type quarantine to it and choose the best spot for a 20k city. The rest of the theoretical game would have been devoted to burning through the techs and building all the wonders possible in that city.

I may go back to that at some point, but for now I'm running Mapfinder for a new huge map.

But then you will not get many MGLs no?
I think in this situation it will be very hard to catch up, because a slightly improved city site will not catch up on thousands of years, though many leaders could...

I think an intermediate strategy would be best.
Where you sorta beat down the AIs so theyre not too troublesome, but still strong enough so you get many chances to get elite wins

 

[LulThyme]

I've done a bunch of false starts for my Tiny Warlord 100K Iroquios. Mostly because I set Mapfinder wrong and was getting random competitors.

The one I started last night is very promising. The start showed 2 Cows, and a lux. After moving 1 tile and settling I now had 2 Cows and Wheat.

The important thing was Goodie Hut popping. I got a settler right away and settled 3 North of my initial city (in range of 1 shared cow and a flood plain).

Initial builds was a scout, but changed to initial granary once I got the 2nd city, and then a temple, then mostly running as a 4 turn pump. 2nd city built a scout, temple, and is building the Pyramids now.

I found France right away. India is very far away and took a long time to find them.

My future goals:
I am nearly at Republic and will then build a bunch of mounted warriors and eliminate France before they ever meet India. If I get a MGL then I will save to rush the FP someplace far from Salamanca.

Sounds good!
Do you have a screenshot?

 

[MOTH]

Sounds good!
Do you have a screenshot?

Yes, I do. Attached. I moved 1 south at the start and my scout to the Mountain as I wanted to pop the hut after I settled just ot increase the chance of getting a settler or a town. I moved the popped settler to the Incense and settled on the hill.

 

[MOTH]

Oh, I thought I should mention that 4 turn combo warrior/settler pumps seem very difficult to obtain on Tiny maps. When you get to 8 spt you lose 1 to corruption, so you would need to produce 11 spt (city, and five 2 spt tiles) and still have extra food. I supose a bunch of BG and a bunch of 2 spt cows...

 

[a space oddity]

Rather than threadjack Dianthus' 100k thread any further I'll mention my 80k game as the Babs on Monarch. I wanted to try a game were the ToA would be left working troughout the game, this means shutting down research before Education. Of course the AI went ahead, so I had to destroy the Great Lib when I captured it. I confined one of the AI in a sandbox and destroyed the others. I chose the French, Dutch and English as opponents. I figured the Dutch would build me a couple of cities to immiately upon capture would hold a Temple for me. They turned out to be my neighbours, and this worked out well. It was tense at times and they even managed to raze a city of mine.

A downside to this technique as I found out, is that the culture isn't doubled, only that of the ToA itself. It prolly works better the larger the world is. Personally I like more teching and the getting the internet better.

I managed 80k of culture in my small pangaea world in 1375AD.

 

[Gyathaar]

There is 2 problems with ToA.. first there is the lack of culture doubling.. the other thing is you cant build universities.

For religious civs, temples are so cheap you are better off building the temples yourself and get culture doubling (if in a gov with poprushing you need just 10 shields and a size 2 town to rush it.. which you get after 10 turns if you have a 2 food tile to work)

For scientific civs its bad to not be able to build cheap universities for culture (they are more culture per shield and cost same maintainance as cathedrals).

So for babylonians its double bad.

However ToA is prolly great on big maps where you have to put more effort into reaching domination limit (and you have a lot more cities)

 

[a space oddity]

You're right of course.

I wanted to see what it'd play like, and there are some very empty tables in the HoF, just begging to be filled.... I really didn't expect the lack of doubling though, I think that's the real killer in the end, or like you say you're playing on a map with an extremely high dom limit. Maybe it'd still be wise to hand-build some Temples in the core anyway in that case.

 

[Gyathaar]

You cant build new temples while ToA is active

can build them before ToA ofcourse, but you wont get the culture doubling on them untill ToA expires..