The thing with choosing leaders for civs is that you don't just go with talent, but with fame. There's no point picking someone based solely on fame of course, but a combination of fame and talent goes a long way. That's why I'd choose Cleopatra over Hatshepsut as an Egyptian female leader. Indira is considerably better known than any of those three. I bow to your superior wisdom in this matter. Thought about him, should have shortlisted him. Is that who I was thinking of, or another guy? See my fame comment above. Again, fame. Plus, even though Irene ruled herself, I just think Theodora and Justinian did a better job overall. That's longer than I thought they lasted. I was aware of only a few centuries. I honestly thought they didn't last as long as Assyria. And yes, discovering Iron Working is incredibly important - both in life, and civ - so maybe they should be in. I still stand by my second point though. If the total number of civs were increased, I'd have them in a heartbeat.