Why conservatives don't like marijuana

[Gorbles]

I never said prison was the best fate. I never said that. I said hey prison sometimes works, so what. But it ain't the best.

Perhaps rehab. But I'm not an expert. But hey for all my life, and it matters to me, I know the danger of getting addicted even to something as readily available as alcohol is dangerous. I know that. So I always made myself the favour of avoiding it most of the time, I just drink perhaps once or twice a week.

If people can't learn self-control, they should have some sort of check. And perhaps the fear of getting caught and going to jail is an useful deterrent, even if not the ideal or fairest solution. Nuff said.

Your entire argument appears to be motivated by your own personal anecdotes. They carry about as much water as my own, as a someone who smoked casually, gave it up, and tried weed a few times, and didn't stick with that either.

I'd call myself a pretty heavy drinker, but there are entire months I've gone tee-total for (for a variety of reasons: health, money, charity).

Who wins? We're back to my questions about ethics and morals, though this time an answer that doesn't devolve into circular philosophising might work better.

 

[Arwon]

That's why all drug use ends in addiction, and addiction leads to death.

National Drug Strategy Household Survey 2019, Summary

The 2019 National Drug Strategy Household Survey report showed that:fewer Australians are smoking tobacco daily, while the use of e-cigarettes is increasingmore Australians are giving up or...

www.aihw.gov.au

The majority of drug use doesn't even lead to continued drug use

In 2019, 43% of Australians aged 14 and over had illicitly used a drug at some point in their life (including pharmaceuticals used for non-medical purposes) and 16.4% had used one in the last 12 months.

How does cracked cargo cult ancient grecian philosophy feel about empirical evidence and data?

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

Even if by your own statistics only 1/4 will ever go down to the road of drug addiction, that's enough of a statistical sample to be a matter of serious concern. Just like the figures for alcohol btw.

As for what Gorbles said, I honestly don't know. Rehab is a case by case basis, but jail can often work as a deterrent to make sure only the most determined with making a profit with drugs or getting addicted go ahead, so we can know and track them, and keep control upon them. That's all I can say.

 

[Broken_Erika]

but jail can often work as a deterrent to make sure only the most determined with making a profit with drugs or getting addicted go ahead, so we can know and track them, and keep control upon them. That's all I can say.

The thing is we tried that for decades and it doesn't work.

 

[Hygro]

Long ago I was kinda like marxist.

But today I'm just anti-liberal. Excessive concern for individual "freedoms" and social harmony are not necessarily compatible.

Liberalism is immoral because it presumes the individual is the alpha and omega and zero sum, whereas as Plato would say, it is the law that dictates the individual and not the opposite. Therefore, if we admit that objective morality exists, we know that a superficial search for bodily pleasure at all times is a recipe for disaster, and ensues in pain, because this is no substitute for true happiness, or the good, and by itself just increases the demand for superficial bodily pleasure until you cannot manage it. That's why all drug use ends in addiction, and addiction leads to death.

That has to be the most nonsensical take on CivFanatics I have read in a good while.

 

[Hygro]

Carl Schmitt

my favorite nazi!

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

That has to be the most nonsensical take on CivFanatics I have read in a good while.

No, all you gotta do is to read serious stuff. Not just Americanized tosh anyway. Like the authors I mentioned. Lol

 

[Arwon]

As for what Gorbles said, I honestly don't know. Rehab is a case by case basis, but jail can often work as a deterrent to make sure only the most determined with making a profit with drugs or getting addicted go ahead, so we can know and track them, and keep control upon them. That's all I can say.

The worst thing in the world is to become an addict and have no check whatsoever upon that. You'll die soon, or end in some slum, trading your last meal and your last pair of socks for crack.

Prison and prohibition promotes the bad outcomes. Addiction is a health issue, it's best treated with health interventions. It is also often co-morbid with other mental health conditions, and the dual diagnosis requires effective treatment of both facets of the problem.

If you've ever had loved ones with substance use disorders in your life, you'd understand how essential supportive health policy is. Fix the healthcare to ensure access and adequate resources, remove the legal barriers to treatment by not criminalising addicts. It's not a complex or mysterious problem and it's certainly not a legal-moral one.

 

[Arwon]

Even if by your own statistics only 1/4 will ever go down to the road of drug addiction, that's enough of a statistical sample to be a matter of serious concern. Just like the figures for alcohol btw.

"I was wrong by an order of magnitude but, trust me bro"

 

[Hygro]

No, all you gotta do is to read serious stuff. Not just Americanized tosh anyway. Like the authors I mentioned. Lol

All you gotta do is take a full tab and then resist the urge to black hole the party.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

Prison and prohibition promotes the bad outcomes. Addiction is a health issue, it's treated with health interventions. It is also often co morbid with other mental health conditions, and the dual diagnosis requires effective treatment of both facets of the problem.

If you've ever had lived ones with substance use disorders in your life, you'd understand how essential supportive health policy is. Fix the healthcare, remove the legal barriers to treatment. It's not a complex or mysterious problem and it's certainly not a legal-moral one.

Honestly, I think you're mostly true. However, I believe legal deterrents must exist in a carrot and stick fashion, even if they don't always entail in prison or even community service. It's like transit fines, you can do whatever you want with your car, but when you harm yourself and the public good with it, you'll be fined. That might be a good alternative. But it's just too much of a complex subject to give a ready for all one liner solution. Rather it must be decided on a case by case basis.

 

[Arwon]

Honestly, I think you're mostly true. However, I believe legal deterrents must exist in a carrot and stick fashion, even if they don't always entail in prison or even community service. It's like transit fines, you can do whatever you want with your car, but when you harm yourself and the public good with it, you'll be fined. That might be a good alternative. But it's just too much of a complex subject to give a ready for all one liner solution. Rather it must be decided on a case by case basis.

We are extremely lucky your silly beliefs don't inform policy anywhere near me and my family.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

We are extremely lucky your silly beliefs don't inform policy anywhere near me and my family.

Lol so keep trolling me, that's so useless.

Also the debate here reeks of anglosphere. Go to former Eastern Europe, or Latin America, or even places like Africa or the Middle East, you'll all know that liberalism isn't even that popular or unanimous or uncontested. In that case, it's good for me because I don't live darn it near that rotten ultra-liberal anglosphere, lol.

 

[Hygro]

Lack of drug use is a serious and legitimate problem in America.

 

[Arwon]

Lol so keep trolling me, that's so useless.

Also the debate here reeks of anglosphere. Go to former Eastern Europe, or Latin America, or even places like Africa or the Middle East, you'll all know that liberalism isn't even that popular or unanimous or uncontested. In that case, it's good for me because I don't live darn it near that rotten ultra-liberal anglosphere, lol.

Uruguay was the first place in the world to legalise cannabis possession and consumption. It's also legal in Thailand.

Drug consumption and possession in general are decriminalised in places like Armenia, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Spain, Portugal, Paraguay, and Ecuador. None of the anglophone countries have decrimininalisation of possession and consumption at the national level.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

Uruguay was the first place in the world to legalise cannabis possession and consumption. It's also legal in Thailand.

Drug consumption and possession in general are decriminalised in places like Armenia, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Spain, Portugal and Ecuador. None of the anglophone countries have decrimininalisation at national level.

You've forgotten that a fact doesn't make a value. Also, CZE bans large quantities of the drug, in other words, if you get caught with enough marijuana for you and your peers, or if you really want to OD yourself, the police is going to zero on you. However with small quantities, you still get fined.

Average sentence for drug law offence – approximately 4 years and 2 months. btw in CZE

Not the most ideal situation imo but corrected. Drug posession is not liberated.

 

[Arwon]

I didn't say it was. I said decriminalised, and I said personal possession and consumption specifically. Possession and consumption being decriminalised generally means trafficking is still criminalised and enforced against. The argument you've been defending here is the criminalisation of personal possession and consumption for people's own good, and then you started saying this was only something debated in anglo countries.

Compared to most of the anglosphere, Czech drug law is in fact more liberal. In most of most anglo countries, there's no decriminalisation of personal consumption and possession of drugs in general, even if there is sometimes some specific cannabis liberalisation.

The Czech Republic is in fact often held up as a model for not following punitive personal drug use laws favoured by countries such as the United States: https://www.opensocietyfoundations....blic-exemplifies-smart-and-humane-drug-policy

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

I didn't say it was. I said decriminalised, and I said personal possession and consumption specifically. Possession and consumption being decriminalised generally means trafficking is still criminalised and enforced against. The argument you've been defending here is the criminalisation of personal possession and consumption for people's own good, and then you started saying this was only something debated in anglo countries.

Compared to most of the anglosphere, Czech drug law is in fact more liberal. In most of most anglo countries, there's no decriminalisation of personal consumption and possession.

No, what I said is that anglo countries are way too liberal socially and politically.

But to correct you, drug posession of marijuana entails a fine.

Ehra

Eurasian Harm Reduction Association (EHRA) is a non-for-profit public membership-based organisation, registered by the initiative of harm reduction activists and organisations from Central and Eastern Europe and Central Asia (CEECA) in 2017

harmreductioneurasia.org

· Drug use is not an offence, and possession of small quantities for personal use is a non-criminal offence, punishable by a fine of up to €555. Possession of a quantity of cannabis ‘greater than small’ (defined by the Supreme Court in 2014 as ‘manifold excess of a normal dose’) attracts a prison sentence of up to one year while possession of other substances is punishable by up to two years’ imprisonment (or two to eight years if the quantity of drugs is ‘significant’).[15]

Honestly, even though I personally don't believe this is ideal, I can settle with that. I think this is fine, from a pragmatic POV.

 

[Arwon]

Good lord you don't even understand the terms you're trying to argue here, do you? An administrative fine isn't a criminal sanction. It's the equivalent of a parking ticket. No criminal record, no threat of jail.

Treating personal drug consumption and possession as the equivalent of a parking offence is hugely more liberal than much of the US (especially if you're black) and many other parts of the anglo world. It's being introduced in Canberra and the rest of this country and especially the media and conservative politicians are treating it like this massive radical insane experiment.

 

[Arwon]

In fact the Czechs have been advocating internationally for global liberalisation and a move away from criminalisation and punishment, here's what they submitted to the UN Commission on Narcotic Drugs in March this year:

Today, more than ever before, a strong emphasis on human rights, dignity and freedom must be the core of drug policies. We should continue in our endeavour to guard vulnerable groups, regardless of their age, colour, gender or nationality. Everyone has the right to enjoy the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health. In this regard, we underscore our strong commitment to the comprehensive outcome document of the 2016UNGASS and all commitments set in international human rights law. We must promote a truly evidence-based approach on harm reduction philosophy. Evidence today leads us towards abandoning extreme punitive policies based on the non-attainable ideology of an abstinent world. This ideology actually seems to create more serious unwanted consequences than provide solutions, such as destabilising countries and whole regions,creating narco states and contributing to globally organized crime, corrupting governments, or stigmatizing people with mental health problems, and even creating epidemics. The victims of such harsh policies still based on the idea of the War on Drugsare usually those most vulnerable people. In this regard, we must strongly oppose the imposition of disproportionate and inhumane penalties, especially the death penalty, for drug-related offences. We must support policies, such as decriminalization of drugs for personal use, that are, as evidence proven, the right way forward.

To be clear, this is a radical statement compared to much of what you will hear from any national government in the anglo countries and is borderline a direct attack on the traditional stance of a country like the United States at these fora.