Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
Dude, that's ridiculous. That's like pointing out that France became militaristic because Napoleon was Italian. You can't say that Hitler was Austrian, therefore Austria must have been militaristic.
Why did Germany take so long to unify?
- Thread starter RedRalph
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warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Napoleon was Italian?
What?
What?
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
He was Corsican, which was a Genoese possession until the year before he was born. Buonaparte is an Italian name, and Corsica spoke an Italian dialect at the time. After years of schooling in France, he visited his family in Corsica and couldn't even speak his own language anymore. Also note, he proclaimed himself King of Italy. He never proclaimed himself King of anywhere else.
So basically what you're saying is Napoleon was Corsican. And he made his son King of Rome and himself Emperor. No kingship of anything involved. (Emperors kind of outrank kings, so that wouldn't make much sense.)
Although one might claim Napoleon de facto worked towards German unification by removing small principalities, introducing the Rhine League and by his own coronation forcing the HRE emperor to name himself emperor of Austria. So he showed the HRE to be defunct, leaving room for something else; German nationalists jumped at the occasion. (In a nutshell.)
You're missing the point. Nobody said Napoleon was bad for German unification, they were referring to the silliness people brought up about Hitler being a clear sign of Austrian militarism.
Napoleon was indeed fantastic for German nationalism...not only did he create the Rheinbund and clear out the Imperial deadwood, but he also made himself a fantastic target for German collective hatred. (Like Louis XIV did with the destruction of the Palatinate, Louis-Philippe with the Wacht am Rhein crisis, and Napoleon III with the Luxemburg and Rhineland episodes...French have a startling penchant for making themselves hated in Germany...)The reason why germany didn´t unified earlier is because we germans don´t like people who speak another dialect. I can´t understand the people who live 40 km away so why should I live in the same country with them. Not to mention people living 400 km away in Bavaria or Hamburg they seem to me like from another planet.
There is a small town near my hometown which today has about 1500 inhabitants but a gigantic castle in the center. That´s where our duke lived and reign over our small country. And thats how it should be today.
There is a small town near my hometown which today has about 1500 inhabitants but a gigantic castle in the center. That´s where our duke lived and reign over our small country. And thats how it should be today.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
Actually, Napoleon made himself King of Italy, as well as his son King of Rome. He merely left the Kingdom of Italy - only the Northern half of Italy, the South was still the Kingdom of Naples - under his step-son's rule.
And Napoleon worked for both German and Italian unification. He spread nationalism and revolutionary fervour throughout Europe, although I don't think it was particularly intentional on his part.
I didn't miss any point, I ignored that bit 'cause I found it uninteresting.
@sharwood: Totally in agreement, except for the King of Italy bit. I read thru an entire Napoleon biography and never came across it. So when did he make himself King of Italy? (It must have been prior to his Emperorship, I reckon.)
@Echse: Interesting viewpoint. (Although I guess nationalists even in the early 19th century wouldn't be much impressed by it.) But you are ofcourse correct about the dialects. Even in the Netherlands they're totally unintelligible to a non-native speaker.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
Here's a link, dealing with the Kingdom of Italy. The map isn't entirely representative, as the Kingdom was actually considerably larger at one point, although Napoleon detached quite a bit of territory, so it is accurate. The article also errs in that it claims the Kingdom of Italy was a mere appendage of France, the resources of which were exploited solely for France's benefit. While this was true to a point, the article fails to make mention of the reforms Eugene de Beauharnais made while Viceroy, both to the administration and the military. Eugene was undoubtedly the most able and talented leader and soldier of Napoleon's family, excepting the great man himself.
As you can see from the link, Napoleon actually created the Kingdom out of the former Republic on March 17, 1805, after he had crowned himself Emperor. Most biographies of Napoleon make either no, or only passing mention of this. You'd be better off finding a biography of Eugene, if you can - there aren't many around. If any of the rulers put in place by Napoleon deserved a crown of their own, it was him. He was an able and fit ruler, and more loyal than most of Napoleon's siblings.
Soccergoogle
Chieftain
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Why did Germany come about when it did? Did it have to do with Bismarck?
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Hey! Back off. Unibroue is ours, not yours!
On-topic, had Germany unified back then the map of Europe would likely be much different today, because parts of what is today Germany wouldn't have been included in a unified renaissance Germany. The core of a unified Germany would likely have been the Rhineland (as opposed to being a Brandenburg-centric empire), and I'm not sure that, despite their inhabitants being nominally German, Austria or even Bavaria or Saxony would have been included.
Uh, back when?
@Sharwood: Thanks!
Germany as is today basically became unified in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-'71 which, after the war with Denmark, made possible the creation of the German Empire (the 2nd Reich after the Holy roman Empire); it was mostly due to Bismarck's aggressive foreign policy that Wilhelm of Prussia became emperor with Bismarck as his chancellor (or prime minister). After the Reich had been created, Bismarck pursued a balance of power policy until he fell into disgrace with the emperor, who then pursued a more aggressive foreign policy, ultimately alienating both France and England and leading to the Central Powers alliance. (As Britain and France allied with czarist Russia the stage was set for WW I.)
Germany as is today basically became unified in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-'71 which, after the war with Denmark, made possible the creation of the German Empire (the 2nd Reich after the Holy roman Empire); it was mostly due to Bismarck's aggressive foreign policy that Wilhelm of Prussia became emperor with Bismarck as his chancellor (or prime minister). After the Reich had been created, Bismarck pursued a balance of power policy until he fell into disgrace with the emperor, who then pursued a more aggressive foreign policy, ultimately alienating both France and England and leading to the Central Powers alliance. (As Britain and France allied with czarist Russia the stage was set for WW I.)
Fixed it for you.
Soccergoogle
Chieftain
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Does Austria's control over some of the German states after the Congress of Vienna have to do with why germany took so long to unify?
Germany was actually a Confederation after the Congress, with Austria in the permanent presidency. Austria didn't want to get into that whole nationalism bit, because her empire was essentially based on antinationalism, what with the Hungarian, Italian, West Slavic, and South Slavic territories. So we have episodes like the 1820s, when Austria forced many nationalist organizations to disband, several universities to eject nationalist professors, and so forth.
In short: yes, that is part of it.
Soccergoogle
Chieftain
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but wasn't Germany created on the bias of Nationalism? If Austria was so anti-nationalist how would Germany stand a chance?
Prussia ended up winning and creating a Kleindeutschland. And, again, that's not the entire story (it gets fairly complex): Austria in the 1860s can be said to have wanted to hijack German nationalism to gain more power over the Confederation; hence the diplomatic maneuvering that led to the Seven Weeks' War, in which the Austrians proposed to overturn the Gastein settlement with popular German support.
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