Why did Germany take so long to unify?

[Soccergoogle]

is it true that the Austrians allowed the Germans to unify because of complications within the Habsburg empire?

 

[Dachs]

is it true that the Austrians allowed the Germans to unify because of complications within the Habsburg empire?

Nah, the Austrians didn't have a whole lot of choice. They lost the Seven Weeks' War and were forced to disband the German Confederation in favor of a Prussia-led (and Austria-excluded) North German Confederation, which incorporated some South German states to form the Empire in 1871.

 

[Soccergoogle]

I hate german unification, i have to write a paper on it due tomorrow. im like halfway done. do you know all of this stuff or are you looking it up? if you know it you must love history.

 

[Soccergoogle]

how did the neighboring countries feel about German unification? I read that they were worried about Germany's military status but if Germany was a fairly new country what would they really have to worry about?

 

[Sharwood]

I hate german unification, i have to write a paper on it due tomorrow. im like halfway done. do you know all of this stuff or are you looking it up? if you know it you must love history.

German unification is extremely interesting. But I often hate things I'm supposed to do, rather than stuff I do for fun.

Basically, these guys have summed it up for you, but I'll add a few things. Basically, during and after the Napoleonic Wars, there was a surge of nationalism in Europe. Germany experienced this surge, but remained split after the Congress of Vienna.

Now, your question about Austria is a good one. Since Austria was the most powerful German state, it was the one most likely to succeed in a unification effort. However, Austria's empire was multi-national; as such, nationalism was the last thing it wanted to encourage. Austria held the permanent presidency of the German Confederation - basically a lesser version of the Holy Roman Empire in its latter days, focused a lot on economic integration - and discouraged unification.

Prussia was the second most powerful German state. It had no qualms about nationalism, as most of the populace in its territory was predominantly German, though there were sizable minorities, such as Poles. But it wasn't in a position to take over, certainly not without Austrian intervention. In the 1860s and '70s, an opportunity arose to solve this problem.

Bismarck, the Prussian Chancellor, convinced Austria to join him in a war against Denmark over Schleswig-Holstein (I think that's spelt correctly), a German duchy held as a fief by the Danish King. The war was successful, and Prussia reached terms with Denmark which antagonised Austria. Whether Bismarck did this intentionally or not depends on who you believe. Bismarck was certainly not above lying about his own actions.

Austria and Prussia now went to war, the aforementioned Seven Week's War. Prussia and its allies - mainly Italy - defeated Austria, though not nearly as easily as is imagined. The Italians, starting a great and long-standing tradition, botched pretty much every military action they took in the war. The post-war treaties bolstered the new Prussia-Italy alliance, as Italy was granted its last great territorial desire - for a while -, Venetia, formerly Austrian. Bismarck avoided antagonising Austria further and making a long-term enemy of it by not taking any territory from it for Prussia.

This war destroyed the German Confederation, and forced Austria out of German affairs. Bismarck set about creating the Prussian-led North German Confederation to take its place, but, as the name suggested, it only included North German states. Then another great opportunity presented itself.

France, fearful of Prussia's growing power, threw a tantrum when when a member of the Prussian royal family was chosen by the people of Spain to take the Spanish crown after a revolution, and accepted, forcing his withdrawal. This in turn upset Germans, who felt France had no business objecting to a German prince. With Franco-Prussian relations worsening, Bismarck deliberately provoked France into declaring war. The German states, seeing France as the aggressor, and frightened of it, joined forces with Prussia. Together, they crushed and humiliated France, and Germany was unified, much to Bismarck's glee.

 

[Sharwood]

how did the neighboring countries feel about German unification? I read that they were worried about Germany's military status but if Germany was a fairly new country what would they really have to worry about?

See my mention above about how they humiliated France. France was considered the most powerful state in Continental Europe, and Germany absolutely trounced it. In addition, Germany was populous, and its people well-educated, hard-working, and full of nationalistic fervour. It industrialised quickly. There was plenty of reason to fear a nation that had won three wars in half a dozen or so years, especially two against supposedly superior enemies.

 

[Dachs]

I hate german unification, i have to write a paper on it due tomorrow. im like halfway done.

Good luck.

do you know all of this stuff or are you looking it up? if you know it you must love history.

Yeah, I know it offhand. I've always had a special interest in German history, though; the whole "learn about your fatherland" and that sort of deal. If I were made to learn about it, it'd probably be a lot less interesting.

how did the neighboring countries feel about German unification? I read that they were worried about Germany's military status but if Germany was a fairly new country what would they really have to worry about?

See what Sharwood said - he did a pretty good job on the whole shebang. In addition, there was the 1875 crisis. Nominally, the new German state was loosely allied to Russia and Italy, and Austria-Hungary maintained a form of neutrality, but in 1875 there was word in the German press about renewing the old war with France, because the Third Republic was getting 'uppity' - in this case, meaning that they reestablished their army and their finances to a semblance of prewar levels very rapidly. Even though von Bismarck never stated that it was German government policy to think about going back to war, virtually all of the Great Powers started making angry noises about Germany. Von Bismarck immediately said that Germany wasn't actually going to go back to war with France, but the whole crisis showed just how worried even Germany's allies were about German military power.

 

[Sharwood]

Please tell me they actually used the word "uppity?" It's possibly my all-time favourite word.

Regarding Bismarck's policy, it was actually his policy to specifically avoid wars. He was less than impressed with Germany's activities after he stepped down, and was even pretty pissed that he was overruled over Alsace-Lorraine. He wanted to treat France as Austria had been treated, that is to say no territorial concessions. Not sure of his feelings regarding the indemnity.

 

[Dachs]

Please tell me they actually used the word "uppity?" It's possibly my all-time favourite word.

Oh, if only I could.

Regarding Bismarck's policy, it was actually his policy to specifically avoid wars. He was less than impressed with Germany's activities after he stepped down, and was even pretty pissed that he was overruled over Alsace-Lorraine. He wanted to treat France as Austria had been treated, that is to say no territorial concessions. Not sure of his feelings regarding the indemnity.

Pretty much, yeah. He avoided war when the Russians proposed it to him in a rather baldfaced manner at Alvensleben in 1863, and only hijacked the Schleswig war because he thought he had little choice. Austria cornered Prussia into the Seven Weeks' War, too.

 

[Sharwood]

Oh, if only I could.

Pretty much, yeah. He avoided war when the Russians proposed it to him in a rather baldfaced manner at Alvensleben in 1863, and only hijacked the Schleswig war because he thought he had little choice. Austria cornered Prussia into the Seven Weeks' War, too.

Yep, though both worked out pretty damn well for him. Of course, if we were to believe Bismarck, he deliberately provoked all those wars, based on his study of Danish, Austrian and French artwork. My encyclopaedia at home actually believes him, which is what prompted me to study the guy in the first place.

 

[Camikaze]

Regarding Bismarck's policy, it was actually his policy to specifically avoid wars.

After unification, of course. Shown by his immortal quote:

The great decisions of the day are not decided through speeches and majority resolutions...but through blood and iron.

But yeah, his wars were only for the purpose of unifying Germany, or extending Prussian power, or whatever way you see it, and not for the purpose of wars. This is shown by his conciliation with Austria, and his attempt to do the same with France. So after Germany had been unified, he didn't want any more wars, as they would serve no purpose, and therefore he didn't want Austria or France as enemies.

Edit: Summary- I disagree that he was forced into wars.

 

[Sharwood]

After unification, of course. Shown by his immortal quote:

And he was right. Doesn't necessarily mean he liked it.

But yeah, his wars were only for the purpose of unifying Germany, or extending Prussian power, or whatever way you see it, and not for the purpose of wars. This is shown by his conciliation with Austria, and his attempt to do the same with France. So after Germany had been unified, he didn't want any more wars, as they would serve no purpose, and therefore he didn't want Austria or France as enemies.

Edit: Summary- I disagree that he was forced into wars.

You seem to be buying into the "Bismarck = Thrawn" fallacy, which Bismarck did his best to spread. With the exception of the war with France, which he deliberately provoked, he was basically improvising. And even that war was deliberately provoked only after Bismarck saw and seized the opportunity French hissyfits provided. Which in a way, is even more impressive than one uber-plan stretching across a decade. In another, far cooler way, it isn't.

And of course his wars were for extending Prussian power. Bismarck was the ultimate realist. Only idiots and psychopaths fight wars for the sake of fighting them. Yes, I would qualify the Aztec religion as stupid and counterproductive, making them idiots, before anyone brings it up.

 

[Camikaze]

And he was right. Doesn't necessarily mean he liked it.

But it does mean that that was his policy.

You seem to be buying into the "Bismarck = Thrawn" fallacy, which Bismarck did his best to spread. With the exception of the war with France, which he deliberately provoked, he was basically improvising. And even that war was deliberately provoked only after Bismarck saw and seized the opportunity French hissyfits provided. Which in a way, is even more impressive than one uber-plan stretching across a decade. In another, far cooler way, it isn't.

I would agree that his policy wasn't to achieve unification through war, but to achieve unification through whatever means necessary, including war. So when the opportunities to 'improvise' came up, he was willing to take them, thus creating a policy in which wars, as much as any other useful means, were used to further the cause. In other words, yeah he improvised and didn't really have a plan to go to war with specific nations and the like, but his policy did include war, as it included any means necessary or useful to obtain an end result of unification.

And of course his wars were for extending Prussian power. Bismarck was the ultimate realist. Only idiots and psychopaths fight wars for the sake of fighting them. Yes, I would qualify the Aztec religion as stupid and counterproductive, making them idiots, before anyone brings it up.

Agreed. He wasn't fighting the wars for the sake of fighting them, but for the sake of extending Prussian power (i.e. conquering the Germanic states)/unifying Germany.

 

[Dachs]

I would agree that his policy wasn't to achieve unification through war, but to achieve unification through whatever means necessary, including war. So when the opportunities to 'improvise' came up, he was willing to take them, thus creating a policy in which wars, as much as any other useful means, were used to further the cause. In other words, yeah he improvised and didn't really have a plan to go to war with specific nations and the like, but his policy did include war, as it included any means necessary or useful to obtain an end result of unification.

If he was willing to unify Germany by any means necessary, then why did he reject the Russian proposal at Alvensleben in '63? Would've been the quick and easy route. And please, tell me how any sane statesman would have avoided participating in the Schleswig War when German Confederation public opinion was so greatly for it; Prussia, had it not fought, would have been a pariah and ultimately marginalized. The Seven Weeks' War similarly came about because Prussian power was threatened, not as some sort of plan to extend it: Austria developed proposals in the Bundesversammlung that would revise the Gastein settlement and in so doing ruin the Prussian position and reinforce Austrian leadership, which in itself was a threat to Prussian security.

 

[Camikaze]

If he was willing to unify Germany by any means necessary, then why did he reject the Russian proposal at Alvensleben in '63? Would've been the quick and easy route.

IIRC, Alvensleben was pertaining to Poland, and not the Germanic states. Therefore, I don't see how this could've been in any way useful to the unification of Germany, or the extension of Prussian power over the German Confederation. Please correct if I am wrong in this. However, all three wars that Bismarck did get involved in directly caused the extension of German unification, and/or Prussian power over the German Confederation.

And please, tell me how any sane statesman would have avoided participating in the Schleswig War when German Confederation public opinion was so greatly for it; Prussia, had it not fought, would have been a pariah and ultimately marginalized. The Seven Weeks' War similarly came about because Prussian power was threatened, not as some sort of plan to extend it: Austria developed proposals in the Bundesversammlung that would revise the Gastein settlement and in so doing ruin the Prussian position and reinforce Austrian leadership, which in itself was a threat to Prussian security.

And this is exactly the reason why war was part of his policy. As you put it, no sane statesman would have stayed out of it, and he was quite sane. I am not trying to make any sort of comment on whether Bismarck's participation in the wars was good, or justified, or whatever. I am just making the point that war was not out of bounds for him, i.e. he was willing to make it part of his policy if needed, which it was.

 

[Sharwood]

And this is exactly the reason why war was part of his policy. As you put it, no sane statesman would have stayed out of it, and he was quite sane. I am not trying to make any sort of comment on whether Bismarck's participation in the wars was good, or justified, or whatever. I am just making the point that war was not out of bounds for him, i.e. he was willing to make it part of his policy if needed, which it was.

Well, of course war wasn't out of bounds for him. He far prefered peaceful methods though, as any good statesman would. Case in point, when the short-lived Frankfurt Parliament offered the Prussian King - I believe Wilhelm, but I'm not sure, Dachs would know this better than I - the Emperorship of a unified Germany, the idiot turned it down, because he believed in the Divine Right of monarchs, and therefore the title could not be bestowed upon him by a parliament. Bismarck was pissed! He could have unified Germany much earlier, and without having to fight three wars to do so.

 

[Camikaze]

Well, of course war wasn't out of bounds for him. He far prefered peaceful methods though, as any good statesman would. Case in point, when the short-lived Frankfurt Parliament offered the Prussian King - I believe Wilhelm, but I'm not sure, Dachs would know this better than I - the Emperorship of a unified Germany, the idiot turned it down, because he believed in the Divine Right of monarchs, and therefore the title could not be bestowed upon him by a parliament. Bismarck was pissed! He could have unified Germany much earlier, and without having to fight three wars to do so.

That's what 'pedigree breeding' will do for ya, I 'spose.

And this is what I am trying to say, sort of. Bismarck's ultimate goal was to unify Germany under Prussia. He was willing to do this through peaceful means. He was willing to do this through war. He probably would've been willing to do this by swimming down the Rhine in his speedos telling every passing horse that Old MacDonald has escaped from the farm, and that him and his rubber-duck will save him from being captured by the Martians. To summarize, he would do anything for it, and so therefore, as unification was his policy, war was part of it.

 

[Sharwood]

That's what 'pedigree breeding' will do for ya, I 'spose.

I believe that was the same idiot who had the temerity to complain about being named "German Emperor." He wanted to be known as "Emperor of Germany." Actually cost Bismarck some power and influence for a short period, if you can believe that.

Honestly, somepeople just deserve to be asphyxiated. And look what his grandson accomplished. Eugenics, people! We need it!

 

[Dachs]

IIRC, Alvensleben was pertaining to Poland, and not the Germanic states. Therefore, I don't see how this could've been in any way useful to the unification of Germany, or the extension of Prussian power over the German Confederation. Please correct if I am wrong in this.

At Alvensleben, the Russians, having been successfully detached from the French alliance over the issue of Poland (because the French denounced their actions there, France always having liked the Poles and, being a typical Western nation, getting annoyed at the often brutal methods used to repress minorities in Eastern states), wanted a new combination, and thus offered von Bismarck an even better deal than the bases agreement that he and Gorchakov had already agreed upon: an alliance that would proceed to attack Austria and France. This was rejected by the Prussians.

Well, of course war wasn't out of bounds for him. He far prefered peaceful methods though, as any good statesman would. Case in point, when the short-lived Frankfurt Parliament offered the Prussian King - I believe Wilhelm, but I'm not sure, Dachs would know this better than I - the Emperorship of a unified Germany, the idiot turned it down, because he believed in the Divine Right of monarchs, and therefore the title could not be bestowed upon him by a parliament. Bismarck was pissed! He could have unified Germany much earlier, and without having to fight three wars to do so.

Actually, the crown was rejected because the king - Friedrich Wilhelm IV - could see the writing on the wall, namely that the Austrians and the forces of Reaction were going to overwhelm the Liberal revolutioneers of 1848 anyway, and that taking up their banner would create him too many enemies in both Prussia - where the Junkers and the Conservatives were generally opposed - and the rest of Europe. Von Bismarck was actually one of those Conservatives that had a good chance of trying for a revolution against the King in Prussia if he'd not thrown the Imperial crown into the gutter.

And this is what I am trying to say, sort of. Bismarck's ultimate goal was to unify Germany under Prussia.

But that's not clear at all from the diplomatic evidence.

I believe that was the same idiot who had the temerity to complain about being named "German Emperor." He wanted to be known as "Emperor of Germany." Actually cost Bismarck some power and influence for a short period, if you can believe that.

The title did have some importance. 'Emperor of the Germans' - which was the title Wilhelm I wanted - would imply a right to rule over all German people (and in a rather direct fashion, which the Reichstag found abhorrent), whereas 'German Emperor' was a bit of a compromise between that and 'Emperor of Germany', which would have been the least territorially imposing title. Von Bismarck was kinda worried that that would screw up the relationship with Austria-Hungary, so 'Emperor of the Germans' was vetoed.

 

[Disenfrancised]

That's what 'pedigree breeding' will do for ya, I 'spose.

Well it's hardly stupid from the monarch's perspective - what the Parliament gives, the Parliament can take away, its not like an EUIII event . By waiting and lucking into unification on their terms the power of the King and Prussian elite was much greater than it would have been.