Why did God create atheists?

[pboily]

That's funny, I find torture, persecution, and death to be far worse than the truth.

If only torture, persecution and death had never occured because of "the truth"...

 

[shortguy]

Can't you see that Original Sin is just a way of pointing out that everyone inherits the original sin in that each one of us has an inevitable disposition towards sinfulness?

Well, if that disposition to sin wasn't there before the original sin, the can we pawn our sin off on Adam and Eve?


One question has always bothered me. Christians seem to take it as a given that the punishment for sin must be Hell. While that is the case Biblically, I see no logical reason that God must necessarily punish sinners with Hell. Why couldn't he give sinners a temporary, reforming punishment? Why does he necessarily have to punish at all?

My 2 cents about free will: I don't think free will is a good excuse for Hell. When Christians bring up that people have "free will," it seems to be almost invariably used to show that God is not responsible for the sin of humans. In said argument it is also usually implied that, for humans not to sin, we must necessarily be stripped of our free will. Why? Is it impossible that God use his power such that a person were so awed that he would not sin?

I suppose my overall point is that Christians, assuming that the Bible is true, assume away other possibilities for God's response to and treatment of humans, thus, in essence, putting a higher power over God.

 

[Birdjaguar]

God, time and free will. hmmm...For any being outside of time, change cannot exist. Change creates time. If such a being experienced any change, then he/it would not be outside of time. The universe is change. Constant and ongoing. If god, in his timeless state, is separate from the universe and looking in at us, then god is not infinite and existence is made up of at least two separate entities: god and the universe. By the time you add in heaven, hell, and eternal beings who are subject to time and change (angels and souls). The cosmology gets very murky and messy. I'd love to hear how any of you would explain how all these come together in something coherent. that relates each to time and creation.

the other choice is that god is not separate from the universe. There is only one Reality that is god. Therefore time and change, good and evil etc only exist within the constraints of creation and are not Real. They are all illusionary as far as god is concerned. God does not experience time and cannot experience change.

 

[nonconformist]

Is Gandhi in hell?

 

[ironduck]

Well, let me assure you, you have sinned at some point in your life. What Adam did caused a "sinful nature" to take over mankind, and that sinful nature passed from generation to generation. That nature in essence causes man to sin, and the only thing that stops man from sinning is God.

You will asure me that I have sinned, but you won't tell me what sin is? I keep asking this question, and am yet to get an answer from all you people who constantly talk about how everyone is a sinner. I assume that you think sin is something bad, but maybe you should start agreeing on what exactly sin is before you start dishing out these accusations.

That's funny, I find torture, persecution, and death to be far worse than the truth.

If you had a grasp on the history of Christianity you would know that torture, persecution, and death are *exactly* the kind of things that have been the results when various Christian institutions and people have manifested themselves in this world. And they all 'deserved' it. Why? Oh, because they were sinners!

Why don't you start viewing human beings in a positive light instead of seeing them as sinners who have done wrong and need to be saved from themselves? There is no original sin.

And no, you cannot assure me that I have sinned, for you do not know me.

 

[Xeven the God]

Don't you know the Genesis story? God made us good, we screwed it up, now we have a dispositions to do bad...

Wait... Isn't God all powerful? Why not just make us good again? Why go through all the pain a suffering because we (not even us, Adam and Eve) screwed up once?

Ironduck is right. God is a sadist. If he has the power to change something so important for the better, why not do it? What is stopping him? Is he a prick?

 

[ironduck]

Predisposed has nothing to do with what you do the majority of the time, just what you do in general.

Yes, and like I said, in general I do good, not bad. In other words, I'm NOT predisposed to do bad.

 

[cgannon64]

Well, if that disposition to sin wasn't there before the original sin, the can we pawn our sin off on Adam and Eve?

No. You should know that when you sin, it is you doing it; it just happens that Adam and Eve, in a sense, invented sin by committing the first one.

One question has always bothered me. Christians seem to take it as a given that the punishment for sin must be Hell. While that is the case Biblically, I see no logical reason that God must necessarily punish sinners with Hell. Why couldn't he give sinners a temporary, reforming punishment? Why does he necessarily have to punish at all?

Hell is for people beyond reform. Hell is for people who reject God.

Wait... Isn't God all powerful? Why not just make us good again? Why go through all the pain a suffering because we (not even us, Adam and Eve) screwed up once?

If God "made us good again", that would mean eliminating our free will - do you want that? (And, no, the omniscience of God doesn't necessarily negate free will...)

Yes, and like I said, in general I do good, not bad. In other words, I'm NOT predisposed to do bad.

You can be predisposed to good and bad. I'm merely saying that, no matter how much good you commit, you were clearly predisposed to bad as well.

 

[Xeven the God]

If God "made us good again", that would mean eliminating our free will - do you want that? (And, no, the omniscience of God doesn't necessarily negate free will...)

I don't really see how that works. Adam and Eve had free will, did they not? Before the apple they had free will and no disposition towards sin. Why can't God just make us like Adam and Eve were before the apple?

If God is really all powerful, then I don't see how he couldn't do that without damaging free will.

Counter point please.

 

[cgannon64]

I don't really see how that works. Adam and Eve had free will, did they not? Before the apple they had free will and no disposition towards sin. Why can't God just make us like Adam and Eve were before the apple?

Because, for God to turn you, an impefect being, into a perfect one, he would have to destroy your free will. If he changed your nature, he would be overriding the free will that made your nature.

 

[Xeven the God]

Because, for God to turn you, an impefect being, into a perfect one, he would have to destroy your free will. If he changed your nature, he would be overriding the free will that made your nature.

Then how did he create Adam and Eve with free will? Why didn't he make it so I was born with a non-sinful nature?

No, let's go back even further... Why didn't he make it so Cain and Able were born with a non-sinful nature? Was he still seathing about humanity's disobedience or something?

I still don't know how this works. If I have no choice about commiting a sin, and I will automatically do it at some point in my life, how is that more free will than being a perfect being? And what the hell exactly makes being perfect a destroyer of free will? Jesus has free will, didn't he? Oh, wait, was he a sinner too? And all this time I though Jesus was supposed to be perfect. Silly me.

Wait... Just one more thing: Why would changing my 'predisposition to evil' destroy my free will? Why can't God just make my 'predisposition to evil' into a 'predisposition to good'?

 

[FredLC]

Than God, as a perfect being, lack free will, since the two things are mutually excluded, huh?

Regards .

 

[Hotpoint]

Because, for God to turn you, an impefect being, into a perfect one, he would have to destroy your free will. If he changed your nature, he would be overriding the free will that made your nature.

Well I really hate making the same unaddressed point three times in a single thread but how does the concept of our accountability through Free-Will cope with Genetic Factors beyond the individuals control?

Returning to the original subject matter of the thread there does appear to be a part of the brain linked to religious belief which is more developed in some than others (it has been termed the "God Module"). Free Will still plays a part of course but some people are simply intrinsically more able to have faith than others and this is not something you can choose.

There are also genetic links to violence, risk-taking and many other things which effect personality and a persons disposition towards certain behaviours. You can of course overide your instincts for the most part but your genetic makeup will tend to effect your choices even if only at a subconcious level.

If one individual is born more likely to be "Sinful" than another isn't that sin the creators fault at least partially? The playing field isn't level because "God" has rigged the game against some people more than others.

 

[Lord_all_Mighty]

Because, for God to turn you, an impefect being, into a perfect one, he would have to destroy your free will. If he changed your nature, he would be overriding the free will that made your nature.

Why did he give us free will then in the first place?

 

[ironduck]

You can be predisposed to good and bad. I'm merely saying that, no matter how much good you commit, you were clearly predisposed to bad as well.

Apparently I was predisposed to a whole honker of things, as other people are touching upon in this thread. So why pick out this 'sin' part and not any of the other ones? Why does that particular pedisposal make me need 'salvation'?

And, for the umpteenth time, I'm asking what exactly is this 'sin' you are talking about? If I, with my free will and all, know what it is, I might be able to avoid it, and thus not need salvation, eh? But since none of the people, who have told me in this thread that I commit sins, have wanted to tell me what exactly it is that I have done that they consider to be sins, that basically leaves the whole sin discussion moot.

 

[ironduck]

Than God, as a perfect being, lack free will, since the two things are mutually excluded, huh?

Regards .

But since 'god' is supposed to be all-powerful he can probably switch back-and-forth between being perfect and imperfect. I wonder which he likes best.

 

[nonconformist]

I assume that hell holds the majority of people,a nd heaven holds the tiny fraction of "good" people, so what stops hell invading heaven?

 

[ironduck]

'god'?

or maybe the lack of spaceships?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well I really hate making the same unaddressed point three times in a single thread but how does the concept of our accountability through Free-Will cope with Genetic Factors beyond the individuals control?

Genetics was unknown when christianity developed its dogma and cosmology. It has had a hard time adapting to modern science. I've been told on CFC that free will only involves moral decisons and god gave humans reason so that they could override any baser instincts that might lead us astray.

 

[Hotpoint]

Genetics was unknown when christianity developed its dogma and cosmology. It has had a hard time adapting to modern science. I've been told on CFC that free will only involves moral decisons and god gave humans reason so that they could override any baser instincts that might lead us astray.

Yes that's one I've heard before too but the notion that we can choose to overide our "sinful" instincts wouldn't address the point that to do so is easier for some people than others.

Why does this "God" play favourites?