Why does every unit require copper?

[Ahriman]

I dislike how *all* of the early units require copper or iron, in addition to the metal giving these units a bonus. I wish that most of the early units (swordsmen, axemen, ancient cavalry, chariots) were buildable without copper, but just didn't get the bonus strength from having the metal.

As it stands, if you have a start which is a long way from copper (which can *easily* happen), you are doomed to strength 3 military units only for potentially hundreds of turns. To much power determined by some random die rolls in map generation.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Realism. It's not that much of a problem on premade maps. Dye is also a ressource that can be valuable and if you don't get copper too fast try specializing in monsters and magic.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

ill have to agree with Ahriman on this, requiring copper from the start is a death sentence to most civs. i think make tier 1 units not require any resource, but thereafter make them more important.

 

[Ahriman]

The first monsters are quite a long way down the tech tree - not really a feasible solution.

If its not a problem on premade maps, and on those premade maps you want people to be able to make axemen et al early and so give them a copper resource.... why make all the units need copper?

Suppose you remove the requirement. If the other guy has copper and I don't, and we have axemen, his strength 5 axes will still beat my strength 4 ones, but at least I have a chance with overwhleming numbers, whereas with just strength 3 warriors I have no real chance.

As for "realism", I would argue that civilisations can make reasonable weapons (even metal) from sources widely available anywhere; the copper resource represents a "quality" metal deposit and manufactury that allows you to make superior quality weapons. Also, can't you have guys on horses with spears without a copper deposit (ancient cavalry)?

This was always a very deliberate design decision in vanilla civ; you tailored your teching to the resources you had. If you have no copper, you can still get some decent units with horses. But here, you have to have horses *and* copper for any cavalry.

You gain little for your premade maps by requiring copper for all the units, but you make the mod potentially unplayable on random maps.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

I can try to increase the amount of copper spawned on random maps but that's all I do about it. Dye is almost as powerful as copper and those wartattoos is what's meant for tier 1 units(a warrior with wartattoos is str4 as well). No metal no metalweapons.

Edit: crosspost

Well you can get decent units without metal -> monsters
Unlike vanilla you can see ressources prior to actual use of them so you can plan ahead and if there's no copper beeline to monstertaming.

 

[Ahriman]

Well, its your mod.

But dye is a pretty rare spawn.
You might want to revisit this at a later date, or at least take copper requirements off ancient cavalry, chariots and horse archers.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

... i still agree with Ahriman. ploep he raises good points.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Well, its your mod.

But dye is a pretty rare spawn.
You might want to revisit this at a later date, or at least take copper requirements off ancient cavalry, chariots and horse archers.

It's also a problem with the weaponupgrademechanic. It's weird to have Highelven militia running around with wartattos. But maybe I will lessen this restriction a bit or put in another gameoption8if feasible). However I never felt requiring certain bonuses in order to advance in civ is a bad thing. It's almost the only reason why an early war really makes sense. Without the pressing need to get valuable ressources I'd just settle peacefully as long there's still enough room.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i would settle for a game option that reduces the requirement of copper to the second tier units at least.

 

[Ahriman]

Another problem with this; it makes it really easy to deny the AI *any* real military unit production by denying them copper. The human player is much smarter about resources and expanding towards required resources than the AI is, and in pillaging them during wartime.

In FFH, there are always units that are good without metal (recon line). In regular Civ, iron working comes much earlier, so even if you don't get copper you can get iron. Here, the metal line is fundamental, and iron is a long way away.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Alright guys will review this a bit. I'm mostly testing on premademaps so this just doesn't produce that much trouble for me normally.

 

[kairob]

tier one shouldnt require copper, I agree with Ahriman and PL here. I also think metals in genoral should just be a str. bonus not really a requirement except for really nasty units.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i agree ^

 

[Ahriman]

Having your units 1-2 strength points below those of your rival is punishment enough without not being able to build them at all.
I don't mind the advanced units having metal requirements though (knights, halbardiers, swordmasters of hoeth etc).

 

[kairob]

yeah hard units from the late game should as you have already had time to, er... 'aquire' the resource from a nabour